My son 2 can be cheeky and I think nursery are overreacting

[sluoa]

The last few weeks I've had some reports about the unfavourable behaviour of my son. He's 2 and a half.

Things like, not listening well and also some struggling to share.

I see it at home too. He snatches toys from his older sister, tantrums when he doesn't get his way and is generally pretty active and head strong.

I've never thought or considered that he's neurodivergent and when being told today he had a not so great day and when I said - I know, yesterday he was very cheeky at home. I do set boundaries and consequences with him etc. but he laughs in my face/ sticks his tongue out and that's what he did today at nursery.

His behaviour isn't amazing but I have an older child and her worst age was also 2 and a half. She did similar stuff and just kind of grew out of it. The nursery at the time also made some comments similar to the comments made today. They're leaving it up to me if I want to get them to investigate.

My son is very clever, he speaks really well, he potty trained before two years old and he's just generally switched on for his age. He's very active and physically able. The issue I'm seeing is his defiant behaviour. But I just thought it's age related. My daughter was very very similar. The only difference is that he's an escape artist and she wasn't. He gets out of his car seat, he can lock and unlock doors.

I'm not saying the nursery are wrong and I know better, but similarly I don't really want him on this SENCO track until he's older, if he still struggles.

At the moment he has days where he is well behaved and days where he's not so well behaved.

Should I just start this process or am I right to wait ?

All 2 - 5 year olds can be little shitbags.

If he's toilet trained and speaking well I wouldn't worry.

Can children not just be naughty and out of control without being neurodivergent! Everything is a symptom of neurodivergence now and I find it really offensive as an autistic person. Maybe we are all just human with certain needs

Yeah. I'm headstrong and my daughter is too - her childcare were telling me she won't share, bosses other children around and shouts "no no no!!!" At them if they don't do what she wants 😅

It doesn't sound like an issue to me, just a strong personality type

Surely all 2 year olds are naughty and out of control, they don't have the capacity to know how to behave yet! I'd worry at 4 but not now.

That’s what I thought

Trust your gut. I wouldn't be sending him on that path unless you genuinely believed he needed it. He's very young to be diagnosed with something like that when it's probably just terrible twos. Pursuing a diagnosis will be very stressful for the whole family and not something I would do because I felt pressured into it.

This is the only thing that bothers me in the description. If it's happening often, that's not great.

He’s 2.
2 year olds don’t know what being rude is, they do however respond to a reaction so better not to give one.

I remember as a student being sent to a nursery to do a day's observation. What I observed in that nursery was that the staff were really, really negative. The most used word was NO, shouted sharply. They characterised most of the children as troublesome and naughty and saw themselves as having to do battle against them. I had very little experience of young children then, but I was really upset at the way they were being treated. What I'm trying to say is that some nurseries may be badly managed and not able to bring out the best in young children if the management staff don't have a positive, child-friendly attitude. I do agree that at two many children find sharing very difficult and can be 'rude'. It's not called the 'terrible twos' for nothing! I think you're right to hang on if he is reaching his milestones in good time.

Plenty of 2yo are just badly behaved - nothing necessarily wrong with them!
I would steer clear of calling his behaviour ‘being cheeky’ though. It’s naughty.

I was called into school when my dd just started reception (she was only 4 in the Aug). They thought I should get her hearing checked out as she can't hear them shout her once playtime is finished.

She was fine just a little shite!!

Gosh I think he sounds totally normal?! I’ve not really met a toddler who is not defiant..? I can’t see why that would be a cause for concern. I think they’re jumping the gun and you are right it’s very early. Is it actually causing any problems? Obviously a boisterous child is hard work but beyond that? I’d trust your instincts. X

@MyLeftFootIsBlue

You can only go onto the list if you are referred by nursery / school or the doctor.

Yeah so it's interesting you say this as the nursery staff seem so fed up. Especially today.

Also a mum recently wrote on the group that her daughter kept shouting ' those fucking boys ' and the mum was really shocked and thought she might have heard that at nursery. So something to be said about the vibe there.

The last few months have been a bit of a mess at the nursery, with lots of changes and merging of rooms etc. it used to be amazing but it's really changed recently.

Sounds like they're overreacting. My DS is 2y5m and sounds very similar. In the last few weeks he's gone from being mostly lovely with occasional tantrums to defiant and stubborn. Lots of saying no, ignoring me, doing things he knows are wrong, not doing things I've asked him to. All completely normal as far as I'm concerned whilst incredibly infuriating.

I will add that to echo some of the bits @gmgnts said I think staffs’ attitude and the team culture plays a huge huge role. My DS went to nursery and for a year the staff kept saying how cute and shy he was - I was shocked because he’s not shy at all!! It became a bit of a running joke that I wouldn’t admit that he was shy!! Then I changed nurseries and the change was enormous. He was really really happy in himself from day one and the staff constantly tell me how confident and chatty he is! The first nursery was a long standing place with a team who’ve been there a long time and I honestly think they just had a really negative culture amongst themselves. The second nursery was a new opening and so a totally new team, and they were so positive and cohesive at the new start. I had hesitated about changing and couldn’t believe the difference!

It would be useful to know if they refer a lot of children from that nursery but obviously you're not going to know that. I don't know, if professionals think there may be an issue then I'd probably least consider it, they must be seeing something concerning in his behaviour. Also having worked in nurseries for years I can tell you that not all 2 year olds are like that, I'd say it's a minority of them.

Ah the terrible twos. I remember my daughter, a very bright girl, would go absolutely hysterical if we flushed the loo as she wanted to do it. At playgroup she would do the same if they started rolling up the big playmat without her. I think you are wise to wait. There were things that both my perfectly neurotypical children did as very young children which would have convinced me they had issues had all of the social media been available.

It's hard. He's only 2.5 yo. But like you said he's defiant and an escape artist. You just have him and his sister to watch, they probably have a much bigger ratio (like 1:5). At the end of the day they have to raise his behaviour with you. If he escapes, hurts another child etc it's a much bigger deal for them in terms of liability.

Pragmatically, I don't think it particularly matters whether you agree with nursery or not. They are telling you they see a problem and can decide they no longer have a place for him. Equally, you can decide the nursery isn't the best fit and move him.

I don’t understand why you’d question the nursery workers? They’ve seen hundreds of 2 yr-olds in their time and know what’s within normal boundaries and what isn’t. All you have to compare him with is your other child…
As pp said, he’s either naughty because he’s not being given proper boundaries or he’s ND. Either way the staff thought it appropriate to raise it to you. Listen to them.

Oh my! I'm not sure this would even come close to naughty. It's just normal 2 year old behaviour.

My nieces and nephews were nightmares from 2-3. One has just turned two and it's like a switch has flipped. That doesn't mean he's ND!! They're pushing their boundaries, learning and it's totally normal.

I teach in a school nursery, so older kids. (3-4) We do not enjoy conversations with parents when we have to bring up their child's poor behaviour. The staff are not flagging this up passively or lightly. They are telling you his behaviour warrants monitoring or investigation. It's either lack of boundaries or ND. I see it all the time in a professional capacity. And the pps' dismissing your son's behaviour are not helping him.

I have worked with many many nursery aged children (still do) and have a 3 yr dgs...a lively one .
I think it sounds like a nursery problem rather than an SEN one tbh... sometimes staff mixes make for a negative mind set (especially if the teacher in charge is negative) and children become the scapegoats.
Yes some 2,3 yr olds are well behaved, share nicely, never rude. SOME. Many more are testing the boundaries, throw tantrums, hit out, are rude... because they have toddler brains! Most gradually improve, it's the ones that don't, even with good handling, that are likely to have some SEN...and 2.5 is too early to judge unless there are very clear signs.

As long as you are teaching good manners and reinforcing what's ok and what's not, I'd smile and say 'I'll keep an eye on it'...and also keep an eye on the general attitude towards him from the staff, and towards the kids in general.

He sounds bright and a little bit naughty :)

But the behaviour is absolutely normal.