can SS or CAHMS in effect force a parent to resign...

[needavice888]

...in order to provide 24/7 suicide watch over the child which has been let down over and over by the services for months in end despite asking/crying for help over and over again.. The only solution is now to force the parent to provide 24/7 suicide watch without providing additional therapy or help ans without any regard for the parent's need to work and provide and the impact it has on siblings. Parent has no support network. What happens if parent is ignoring the safety plan and goes to work (not for a jolly but to simply earn a living and to provide for the children).

never. but has disclosed detailed plans this week. and this set it all of.

Does it have to be you specifically that stays with them?
Just this week on my local fb group someone has advertised their services as a sitting service for older children that have needs. I didn’t even know that was a thing? Can SS help with that at all?
Fundamentally you’ll need to emphasise that you can’t cope and if they don’t help
you all your children will be in care (which will cost them even more). I’m sorry you’re in this shit situation.

It's just expected the parent can step up to whatever is needed.

My teenager is anorexic, was put on a 24/7 monitor and refeeding programme. At home. Starting there and then. I wasn't even asked if that's something I could facilitate.

We've been doing the CAMHS circuit for 11 years now, two years with the eating disorder team. There's NOTHING out there.

OP, they can put things in place, but it sounds like they aren't listening to you.

If your DC is that bad and you cannot safely provide 24/7 care, then your DC needs to be in a hospital. Doesn't need to be a mental health hospital,

An excolleague of mine took time off work for exactly this.

She went to very part time (1 or 2 afyernoons a week when her DC was in a therapy session and then built her hours back up as her daughters wellbeing improved.

I don't think there's a service to watch over people who are suicidal unless they are sectioned. It's crap there's no support, but our kids are our responsibility :(.

I hope your DC's mental health improves and stays well.

Sending a hug, I personally could go to zero income and keep the roof over our heads, so I get your concern x.

I had years long crisis w no help from SS or CAMHS. Violent teen child harming me & family.

SS tried to take “decision making” away, in court. Can’t recall the legal name of this. I had to hire a lawyer.
They were using it to force me to stop complaining, begging … to shut me up. Child has diagnosis but they kept blaming my “parenting style” for his behavior … try setting boundaries while getting hit in face or when young daughter being beaten by 85 kg male.
They did nothing to help us. Good luck.

IMO.

@needavice888 when dd was ill ten years ago, CAMHS were utterly hopeless. The only way anything at all was put in place by them was by me summarising every consultation in writing, and sending copies to my MP and the CEO of the MH Trust. They lie, they misuse resources and you must keep an audit trail of absolutely everything.

However much of a "c" you think your MP is, their involvement does make them sit up.

A sentence such as, my other dc have the following needs, I cannot provide for them without an income and your expectations will mean I will.lose my job. My daughter needs clinical support and there is an expectation that your Trust will ensure this is put in place. Your failure to provide adequate care over the last 11 years has led to the present situation:

Example with dates
Example with dates
Example with dates.

I regret to inform you that I am exhausted and cannot provide the 24/7 care you expect. This has to be facilitated by yiur Trust because I need to sleep to. If yiu cannot facilitate adequate clinical care and there are consequences for my daughter's continued well being I shall hold your Trust entirely responsible.

It's shit. I appreciate it's shit. But yiu must document everything, make sure they know you are documenting it, involve your MP and possibly seek some advocacy support from someone like yiur Local Healthwatch.

The squeaky wheel who keeps a record to ensure things are less opaque will help ensure support and a clinical plan are put in place. The more you formally record, the more trouble there will be for the Trust when it goes tips up.

Also request a conversation regarding yiur dd's clinical support with a qualified adolescent psychiatrist. In writing and on rinse and repeat.

Good luck.

@2boyzNosleep sorry but that isn't true. If OPs child was admitted to a general children's ward, they'd expect a parent to be on the ward with them. Children's wards aren't 1:1 supervision. MH wards are only available to children who meet very, very specific criteria including that there is treatment for their condition that they will receive whilst there (this is enshrined in mental health legislation).
Again not saying it's right, but there's no point OP using their energy to fight for a service that doesn't exist right now.

OP does your profession or industry body have any charities, or charities linked to your DCs’ conditions that you could turn to for funding in the short term? It’s not a solution but may cover income for a time if you have to take unpaid leave. Some charities also provide advice but it sounds like you know what’s needed it’s just not being provided

I remember a case years ago now where a mother had her daughter admitted to hospital and did a runner she was so desperate for the authorities to take notice. It was in the national press.

You can't be expected to provide 24/7 supervision OP. If they were that greater risk then they need to be admitted. My ds has a safety plan by cahms after an overdose. Realistically I can't keep to all that they recommend (no internet being one), but we try. But despite a deliberate overdose and continuing suicidal idealisation they have not put consent supervision in his safety plan. At the end of the day you can only do so much.

@wimberry I'm sorry bit you are wrong, if a young person is admitted via A&E as a suicide risk hospital put in place a 1:1 MH nurse. I know this for a fact.

Do not ask me how one bit of the NHS has the money for this for up to three nights to facilitate an emergency CAMHS review (that can take longer than 48 hours) when CAMHS have repeatedly refused support due to lack of resources when 8-12 therapy sessions could have avoided the admission.

The system is a complete arse and the people in charge need a red hot poker where the sun doesn't shine. The mismanagement of resources is absolutely scandalous.

I am a year ahead of you and sending lots of love.

Initially I did have to leave work and claim benefits as I couldn't leave DC and staying up all day and all night wrecked my health. As well as the direct supervision of DC, a lot of time was taken up with appointments and meetings often at short notice and usually smack bang in the middle of the day, so you have to take hours off work, rather than being able to come in late or leave early.

It also took time to find out what the services were and listen to all the reasons why you don't meet the criteria and they won't help you.

Nobody will help with looking after DC as they are too scared and don't want to take on the risk. I felt ashamed to talk about it. Felt like a shit parent.

I exhausted every avenue I could think of, including my MP. Any services are very limited and don't have staff and can only offer six visits. There is no proper ongoing support.

In addition to this I am now, for the first time in my life, in debt, behind on the mortgage and buying groceries on the credit card, with little hope of improvement in the short term.

When things settled down a bit I was able to get a work from home job. It's tricky though as I have one eye on the computer and one eye on DC so nothing is done properly. We are adjusting to our new normal and finding our own way forward.

I hope this will encourage you, that it's the system that is broken, not you. There are so many people with no lived experience who insist there must be some "help" and want you to waste your time on wild goose chases to find it.

You will find a way to get through it. This too will pass. Sending hugs xx

@RosesAndHellebores perhaps it's different in different trusts. It's not happened in the regions I've worked in, and have worked with a lot of young people with serious mental health issues. It's been really difficult to manage on general wards.

I’m so sorry you and your DD went through this. It’s absolutely typical NHS financial mismanagement, as you say - falling over themselves to save £5 now, even though doing so will inevitably cost them £50 down the line. Madness.

OP your DD needs to be hospitalised if she needs to be on suicide watch 24/7. PP’s advice to document, document, document is spot on. Make sure they know you’re doing it. Mention the safeguarding aspects for your DD and other children. Be that very noisy, squeaky wheel and don’t be intimidated.

Ok it's good she actually tried.

Lots more teens make detailed plans than attempt their plans.

What were her plans? Use this info to reduce risks. Eg remove any pills/medications from the house. Remove any alcohol. Remove ropes/cords/belts etc. remove sharp knives or lock them up. Remove poisonous cleaning products - lock away anything you absolutely need. Remove razors.

Beware of local bridges/jumping off points. Keep her away from those.

Take the lock off the bathroom door.

If you remove most of the opportunity a lot of the risk is also removed.

As for work, yes you may have to give this up. You may have to go through the homeless system. But thousands do and end up with more secure housing than they had so it could be worth it long term. Financially she should get DLA and you should get carers allowance for looking after her.

Children's psychiatric wards tend to have more anorexic kids than suicidal ones. Suicide risk will be expected to be managed in the community by primary care. If she makes a specific threat of suicide you phone an ambulance and go to a&e. You keep doing this every time. Every incident needs to be followed up with the gp.

Get a loan & pay for a private asd assessment. That may open more support.

Focus on improving her day to day wellbeing. Do happy tasks. Make sure her diet has lots of wholesome food. Make sure she gets exercise outside every day.

There is a way out of this but most of the work will have to come from her and you.

Same here. I was told I had to stay home and re feed my DD. There was no alternative. I had to take 8 weeks unpaid leave.

@needavice888

This sounds like a very difficult situation, OP.

I'm not sure how old the child is.

Is boarding in a school for children with special educational needs an option?

It's clearly not something which will snap into place in days or even weeks, but, if possible, it would be a comfort to you to know that things would get better.

How old is your child?

Yes,
I was a 100% solo parent with no family support. My son was 13/14/15 at the time and at that point had a dx of:
Emerging Borderline Personality Disorder,
OCD,
Severe Separation Anxiety/Attachment Disorder,
Suicidal Ideation,
School Based Anxiety/Refusal
Self Harm Addiction,
Anorexia/Bulimia
and
C-PTSD.
He was not in a good way and was frequently found sitting on the platform at the local station, swinging his legs over the edge or sitting on the ledge of the local multi story car park rocking back and forth. Multiple chemical OD's, many, many incidences of severe (A&E) self harm. At one point he had an actual (kinda realistic) plan on how to murder me and get away with it. His friends were so worried they called the local police station to do a welfare check on me to make sure I was alive.

I was bullied, harassed, libelled and blamed for every instance by SS and CAMHS. I begged, pleaded and sobbed to the C-CAT, (the supposed out of hours CAMHS - the ones who visit A&E, only during 10am-6pm and are as useless as chocolate teapots) to find him a place in a psychiatric unit.

I was told that he was "acting up for attention", that I should go on a parenting course and that if I really cared about my son I would give up work to give him some stability.

He had had a difficult early childhood (DV and CSA) but because of that I made sure he had continual stability, if I wasn't at work I was by his side.I was raising him on a single income and if I'd resigned from my job I wouldn't have been able to claim benefits as I would have been intentionally unemployed.

I was absolutely vilified by SS and CAMHS for asking for help and trying to come up with a solution that worked.

The end came in two ways. Firstly a very switched on female Police Officer sectioned him inside A&E (so he had to stay there) after the head of A&E, head of CAMHS and the C-CAT team had all said they wouldn't take responsiility for him after TEN days on a childrens ward, waiting for a psych bed. Chief Honcho Psychiatrist TOLD my son he was not suicidal SEVEN minutes before he ran from the hospital and the only reason he failed at throwing himself under a fast moving lorry on an A road was the fact that I caught him by the edge of his hoodie. He was finally admitted to a unit.

Once there I was told I had to visit at least every other day (separation anxiety/attachment disorder). It was a 6 hour round trip on public transport including a half hour taxi ride. All while working. If I'd gone off sick with stress, I would only have received SSP - so unable to afford the transport costs (no, there is no financial help).

Thank God we were offered redundancy the same week. The payout meant I could financially stay at home with him when he was released.
I stayed at home, glued to my sons side for 18 months. I didn't go out for coffee with friends, if he didn't sleep, I didn't sleep and when I did it was with him on a mattress on the floor in my room. When the £ ran out I was able to claim UC and Carers. I was piss poor for a long time but I kept him alive by sheer will.

CAMHS still didn't think this was enough and told me I should co-sleep with him to keep him safe.

Eventually he stopped co-operating with CAMHS and refused to go.

I will say, he's 22 now. Eventually also got a dx of ASD and ADHD. He's stable, loving and has had a partner for the last 5 years. He still has difficulties, Agrophobia is the latest issue but he's not suicidal and hasn't SH in probably about 5 years. BPD raises its ugly head now and again and he can get a bit obsessional (usually around PS4 games) but he's doing really well.

@needavice888

Is a referral to Great Ormond Street a possibility for you?

https://www.gosh.nhs.uk/wards-and-departments/departments/clinical-specialties/department-child-and-adolescent-mental-health-dcamh/mildred-creak-unit-mcu/referrals-mildred-creak-unit/

My child also has anorexia. Luckily she was seen quickly and I only had to take time off to give her lunch and then take her back to school as she couldn't eat around others. Some children can't go to school but I don't really know what people expect chams to do because there isn't spaces for all these kids to go into wards for refeeding. I hear of horrible stories of A&E sending kids home and they have to be on deaths door to be admitted. I thank god we never got to that. But I am really thankful for Chams and the therapy sessions we have and 18 months on things are much better. I think I have been lucky we caught it early and she was very only 11 they said it's easier to treat when they are younger. I do hear a lot of chams bashing and I think people have unrealistic expections. We are given advice and therapy but it will always be down to us parents to watch and refeed our child. I wish your child well in their recovery x it's a horrible illness.

@Wimberry

It does happen. I have to look after MH patients in this situation myself, as a nurse on a general children's ward, as a place of safety, on a regular basis. Many parents do not stay the night so a nurse is assigned 1:1 care.

It's shit, it's not the right place, it's a huge strain and stressful. The ward staff are paeds trained not MH trained.

This usually happens in a situation like OP, where they cannot be safely looked after at home. It's not a permanent answer, but usually a discharge planning meeting is triggered from it. However, I'm some cases, it does take the parents refusing to take them home for the necessary action to be put in place.

I've not known a child/teen be discharged home when they need 24/7 1:1 suicide watch. If they can't be discharged because they cannot be watched, then they stay on the general ward. At this point, my ward put shifts out for MH nurses to do 1:1 or 2:1.

I appreciate some areas & Trusts do things differently.

@sam0207 .

Yes, CAMHS are very very good at infantilising and being reductive. I refused to be addressed as "mum" in that patronising way they have and insisted my name was used. You know, because I was a human being too.

After a crisis to be fair CAMHS, with the help of our MP, did put some clinical care in place and the ADHD service does now support dd. She did recover and is doing very well in her mid twenties. Fortunately BUPA picked up much of the psychiatric intervention and we paid for the ADHD assessment and endless counselling. I think the total bill was about £18,000 with some day patient interventions.

I honestly don't know what the fuck people do if they can't pay but I do know that the system is excuse ridden, unfit for purpose and one has metaphorically to chain oneself.to the railings to get anywhere. I did spend about 4 years kicking up a stink because we had choices and I didn't care if I upset the people in charge.

Family member is CAMHS says you can't stop someone who wants to kill themselves from doing it. So as their family you will do a damn sight better than the state.

My DH has an employee who WFH because their dd is suicidal. Is WFH an option?

I’m sorry if this riles anyone, but if you’re not getting help elsewhere, you would not be unreasonable IMO to present at A&E. It’s what the NHS themselves suggest if you feel you cannot keep yourself or someone else safe

https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/mental-health-services/where-to-get-urgent-help-for-mental-health/

I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I have some experience with a family member and it’s utterly diabolical how alone you’re left with it, and how willing the system is to shunt responsibility onto families for MH emergencies. With that said, they wouldn’t ask you to manage it yourself if it was a heart attack or an aneurism, so treat it with that kind of urgency- it’s a health emergency, just not physical- and get the most immediate help you can.