Aggressive child and parents don’t seem to care

[Herewegoagain5]

I mind 3 children in my home part time, the three of them have been the sweetest kids, they are not related but I have been minding them for just over a year.

one has now become very aggressive, throwing toys at walls and the other kids, kicking them, hitting them.

he doesn’t listen when I tell him to stop, throws a tantrum if I remove him for the situation.

I have told his parents each time at collection and their response is oh that’s not nice but we do try to encourage gentle hands!!

it’s not working and they don’t believe in time out and asked me not to do it but he’s now becoming a danger to the other kids as he kicked one in the head yesterday as she lay on the ground playing with dolls

they are all 2

AIBU to say I can’t mind him anymore unless I can punish him (time out)

No,they’re not. Most toddlers don’t do that - genuinely. Toddlers (without additional needs obviously) who bite, kick and punch regularly aren’t usual. Promulgating that idea just makes the problem worse, as parents think it’s normal so don’t make proper efforts to remedy it and help the child (NB - I’m in no way implying that you didn’t help your child - I’m talking generally there).

It is a very common issue. Why are there lots of picture books for toddlers about not biting, kicking, or hitting people? Because this happens a lot! It isn't normal when it persists for a very long time, but a significant number of children will go through a toddler phase of communicating in a very visceral way...because those are the only tools they have at that moment of development to express wants, needs, and feelings.

This is part and parcel of only being alive on the planet for a short time, growing your brain, not having the right communication skills, and learning how to wait, take turns, share, not to mention how to regulate big feelings.

Oh god, ‘big feelings’ has been rolled out, that’s when it’s time to leave a thread

@BreatheAndFocus i think there have always been ineffective parents (and ineffective includes overly draconian as well as overly permissive.)

I would absolutely not accept my nearly four year old DS hitting or kicking or biting and much disciplining would follow. Two though … two is very different and difficult. Two nearly three I would expect that to be starting to be addressed but to be honest anything under two and a half is difficult in terms of discipline. All I could do was follow DS around and move him if it looked like an altercation was going to happen!

I get that in a childminder setting that’s hard and it’s one of the reasons I wouldn’t have considered a childminder for him (I also couldn’t really do the church hall toddler groups much beloved by MN!) and it’s up to the OP if she chooses to mind the child or not. That doesn’t mean it’s not normal, though!

It may not be a strict majority of toddlers, but many many toddlers go through a phase of doing it, so it is “normal” (as in non-pathological) behaviour in that sense. Usually short-lived, and usually for a reason (defending themselves, defending resources like toys or food, jealousy, etc), and can therefore often be predicted and redirected.

I’d certainly expect an experienced childminder to have come across it before.

I agree to this. You set the rules, not the parents. They can find another setting if they disagree with your methods.

For what's it worth, "gentle hands" is loads of crap IMO. Our toddler has started hitting his sister relatively recently. We do time out but not really as punishment, more as a way to take him out of the situation and get everyone time to take a breather before talking about what happened.
But they key is to identify the triggers (wanting attention, jealousy, boredom, frustration because we said no...) so we can address the root cause.

You need the parents to support with that so they can address it at home too.

For what's it worth, "gentle hands" is loads of crap IMO.

👏

I would agree with that - when I’m saying anticipate it happening and redirect, I mean really redirect, not ineffectually wittering “gentle hands! gentle hands!” at nobody in particular from across the room.

At that my DD and others she was minded with who were the same age used to kick, bite and hit each other. However there was always a reason for it e.g. one took another's toy. I was only told because I was worried my DD was turning into a bully. She wasn't as she was stood up to.

Edited to say: btw my childminder was exhausted after looking after three 2 years olds for a full day. However when they were older or a mixed age group she wasn't as tired at the end of the day.

Agreed!! Anytime I see that ...instant eye roll

I think as the child is only 2, there is very little the parents can do. Perhaps, he do better in a nursery setting.

Exactly - DS went through a biting phase when he was about 20 months old, which stopped abruptly when he learned the word “mine!” and could stop the other kids taking things off him (which the nursery picked up on, and coached him with).

Obviously we never saw this behaviour outside of nursery, because nobody was pushing him over and taking his toys at home.

Kicking a child in the head is not normal🙄. I have come across children like this very occasionally but they were absolutely the exception.

OP, your priority is the safety of all the children.
You cannot do that.
Those parents clearly don't care.
Tell them this week is the childs last.

Maybe that will focus their minds...."gentle feet" christ almighty 🙄

This.

YANBU.

There are behaviour rules in all mainstream childcare settings beyond which the child cannot continue to be managed in that setting.

State your rules simply and give the parents one further days warning notice, and then tell them you can no longer manage the child due to child protection and your duty of care.

"Gentle hands" is a bit wimpy for normal toddler boisterousness. For someone who's kicking another child in the head it's not going to achieve anything other than letting him give someone else concussion. I'd be giving them notice, to protect the other children and your own professional reputation and liability.

I dont disagee with time out in principle but before you consider it, have you thought how you will keep each group of chilren safe when with the other and are there any minumum parent/child ratio rules you could break? How long are you prepared to keep moving him back to the time out zone and how does this affect the other kids?

“Hitting hurts. We do not hit each other” and give the child who has been hit the most attention. Say to the hitter “she is so sad
we don’t hit.” Get the hitter to check on her when he’s calmed down (not forced apology but both go up to the child and say “let’s check on her to see if she’s ok”). But definitely move him away from the child he has hit if he hasn’t moved himself.

The crucial thing is to give the child who has been hit the attention “that hurt, you didn’t like that, you feel sad” type thing and a lot of checking to see if she’s ok.

He’s a bit young, but you can say “you looked frustrated” or “you looked like you wanted that toy, but we never hurt each other” to him to sort of discover why. You can give him the language, say to him “next time say “can I have that toy?” And she can say no but you must not hit.”

This IS normal two year old behaviour, and when you remove for time out, the child is learning that hitting is shameful - not a bad thing - but he isn’t learning how to communicate with other children OR what’s going on his body that makes him want to hit, which is why time outs can be a bit hmm for me.

I’m an early years teacher and this is the sort of thing we do in my setting. We have high ratios and are a private preschool, so it is easier for us, but still hard work.

I’d give then an ultimatum and then if it hadn’t improved issue then notice. The other kids parents may pull their kids out otherwise. I do empathise with the parents my youngest was a total shit around the same age but you’re trying to run a business here and keep everyone safe and happy

We had the exact same thing: the cm suddenly had three nearly three year old at the same time and she struggled. She would often tell me at pick up that dd had been violent, but it would often later come out in conversation that it was when she had left the room, or her teenage daughter was helping, etc.

I wasn't that helpful when being told these things because she was never like this in any other setting, and like pp said I was like...what are you doing about it? We were promised a reward chart for weeks, the triggers to her behaviour weren't being addressed, and every pick up I got sadder and sadder and more frustrated. So we gave notice. She's now at nursery and we've had literally zero reports of anything.

Big feelings plus the following eye rollers:

Gentle hands
All behaviour is communication
OMG you can't PUNISH a child!!
Plus everything DefyingDepravity has posted

Time out gives a child time and space to safely calm down and teaches them hitting/kicking is not tolerated. Whatever their "big feeling" is can be processed and they can reset and try to communicate it

I expect more often than not when a child is being aggresive they have simply lost control and cannot be understood/reasoned with. Putting them somewhere safe for themselves and the other children is not unreasonable.

In a nursery setting this sort of behaviour would mean staff suggesting professional input - getting him seen by a paediatrician for example. And so I think you need to have a formal chat with the parents and suggest they seek help.

You can all go back and forth armchair diagnosing a child you’ve never met with SEN but at the end of the day, OP has as much duty to the other children she minds, as she does to this one.

It shouldn’t be up to her to manufacture a plan for the parents to implement at home (as some seem to be suggesting?) and it’s unrealistic that an inconsistent approach at home vs in childcare will have much effect.

Realistically, OP, it’s up to you to sit down now and establish what process you’re going to use to address major problems to the parents (how many informal warnings? How many formal ones? How many warnings until it’s too much?) while telling the parents that whatever approach to behaviour they decide on, you will follow, during this time. But have an end to it, because when an end is in sight, they will either start taking you very seriously, or decide you’re hysterical and start seeking childcare elsewhere.

You should be getting any new parents you work with to agree to this long before any problems arise.

This is a teaching moment for you as to why most childcare places have this. You should also be writing incident reports for any time a child is hurt in your care, as standard.

I think some posters are being harsh on the OP! OP is just asking for help. Fwiw our childminder is very experienced, she's towards the end of her career which has all been in childcare, has 4 adult kids of her own, was a nursery /preschool manager previously. She doesn't do time outs in the sense of sitting them on a chair or step for X amount of time but she absolutely does use a firm no and will remove a child from the situation, sit them with her until she feels they can go back into the situation/play nicely, I don't know what that is called but it seems to work!

Have you got links with a health visitor or family worker you could discuss this with? Maybe make it clear to the parents his level of aggression is not typical for his age and suggest that they contact the GP/Health Visitor. Let them know it is escalating and becoming a safety concern for him and the other children and you are not sure you can meet his needs.
Therapeutic Parenting can be good in managing this kind of behaviour, it's more about time in than time out. Look for books about having a new sibling. Definitely worth reaching out to health if you can, they may have more info that could shed light on his behaviour and/or can do work with parents to address it as well as referrals to other agencies.