To have reservations about a friendship with a woman who refers to Israel's actions in Gaza as a genocide?

[Oodiks]

I like this woman a lot, but we have very differing world views, specifically her belief that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

We work at a university and were coming back from lunch together when she commented that she was pleased the protestors hadn't come back. I agreed, noting how nerve wracking it must have been for Jewish students on campus to run the gauntlet of pro-Palestinian / anti-Zionist posters in the encampment.

We'd been talking about the American election over lunch, and I thought we'd agreed that Kamala Harris was the better candidate for her views on climate change, if nothing else, but then my 'friend' commented on Biden/Harris sending arms "to support the genocide" and I was left kind of speechless.

Am I being unreasonable to feel unsure about continuing this friendship?

I won't get into the political discussion, but why can't you have a friend with differing world views? If nothing else, don't discuss politics...when did we reach a point, as a society, where we can only be amongst those who share the same views as ourselves?

I think sometimes people very much disagree with each other. I do think for a friendship to survive though you have to be able to accept that the other just doesn’t agree with you. If either one of you is unable to accept the others perspective to the point to where it fundamentally damages the relationship it’s not going to work. I think it depends OP whether you are happy to openly disagree with her and see where the chips fall or whether the relationship is important enough not to say anything.

Most people struggle with difference of opinions these days tbh, there a lot of appeals to emotion and thats why the genocide thing has so much traction. I think it’s a failure of our education system tbh, straw manning, appeals to emotion etc. It takes effort to look at something objectively and a lot of peoples personal identities are tied up in their politics.

For it to be a genocide you have to demonstrate that Israel is actively trying to kill the Gazan population. Civilians dying in war isn’t the same thing as a genocide. Who knows maybe it is a genocide but I would be hesitant to use the word as it has a specific meaning because I just don’t know.

Most genocides happen in the context of war - the one that happened in Rwanda in 1994 for instance. That's why there are laws of war - some things are beyond the pale even during conflict. What's happening in Gaza fits the definition of genocide, even if it was initially triggered by the Hamas attack. I have worked on humanitarian issues for nearly two decades and don't really understand why anyone would think it wasn't genocide. Can you explain your reasoning? Genuinely - I'm curious.

Of course it's a genocide and you are simply ignorant.
Your friend should steer clear from you.

They had been doing that long before Oct 7th

I’m not a fanatic. I’ve studied the history and listened to all sides. I still don’t think it can be referred to as anything other than genocide. And interestingly, so do our Jewish friends - they have clearly stated that because they are Jewish they do not wish to be thought of as supporting the state of Israel in committing genocide. Hamas committed a terrible act one year ago, and in response the state of Israel is destroying Gaza with no concern for civilians, breaking international law and ignoring calls for moderation, citing the need to defend itself paramount. What else would you call it ?

Thank you, that’s the nub; I like her as a person, but how far apart can we be politically and still be friends?

We have international law to prevent genocide. Israel is breaking international law, and intentionally decimating the civilian population. There is no denying that Hamas triggered what’s happening by the attack a year ago, but Israel’s response is disproportionate and now, one year later fits the definition of genocide.

You are talking utter drivel. The rhetoric that this all began on 7th October is one no one believes.
The fact that you think thousands upon thousands of innocent civilians many of whom were children is somehow justified says a lot about you.

It isn’t and that’s not what I was referring to.

Your "friend" needs to be rethinking her friendship with you!
Bet you didn't have the guts to say anything directly to her did you?

Israel ultimately are a traumatised nation. They did not choose this situation, and as such they find themselves in the most terrible predicament.

Israel were given their own land, but decided it wasn’t enough so stole that of the Palestinians and established Jewish Settlements, destroying communities and killing citizens in the process. Israeli politicians in favour of withdrawing from those settlements and restoring the land to the Palestinians have all been removed from office in one way or another. It’s a colonial state and is now committing genocide. How can you possibly say that Israel did not choose this situation ? Do you think the Palestinians should just hand over their land and walk away ?

I agree with your friend. It is genocide and Israel is actively trying to kill and displace the Palestinians.
You are very much on the wrong side of history here OP. Having said that, I never discuss politics with anyone who isn’t an extremely good friend of mine. I have a Jewish friend who is supporting Israel and I know this from her social media posts. I suspect she knows I am very much not. We are still the same good friends because we have been for 20 years.

I describe it as "a war", specifically a war where the fighters on one side wear no uniform and position themselves and their military equipment among civilians. (And have frequently said how they welcome the "martyrdom" of the civilians killed as a result.)

OP I find the term 'genocide' has become toxic an is used inflationarily, so I understand why you would have problems with it.

It seems to suggest that killing a certain number of people is worse if there are then none or very few of the same 'sort' of people left, and recently I was at a demonstration where there were accusations of 'genocide' in places where you're definitely dealing with communal violence.

And on the anniversary of the Hamas massacre yesterday, I was tempted to put up an Israeli flag on my SM, rather than rail about genocide.

I didn't, though, in the end. Because whatever you call it, cramming 2 million people, half of them age 15 and under, into a piece of land the size of the Gaza strip and then lobbing bombs at them for a year is not right. There's no world where that is right.

Yes Hamas are a terror organization, yes, there were civilians in Gaza who looted and celebrated the massacre, yes the Gaza strip has been maladministered, but none of that in the least justifies what Netanyahu and his henchmen have been doing.

So no I wouldn't end a friendship over that, even if I might gently query whether the 'genocidal' nature of the violence is what matters most here. A dead child is a dead child, no matter how many children of the same 'genus' are left life.

Do you really think that if Israel left Gaza and moved out of the West Bank Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran etc. would use leave them to live in peace? How naive.

Arent you aware that Hamas's founding charter calls for the murder of all Jews and Hezbollah's main avowed aim is to "wipe Israel off the map"?

I see this trotted out a lot, and I honestly think it's weird. People must be desperate for friendship if they think that friendship is worth more than a moral code. Where do you draw the line? Marmite is disgusting - yes, that would be odd to end a friendship over. But I won't see someone because of his entrenched misogyny. Normal.

(For the record - part Jewish genocide and conflict reconciliation scholar here who is of the view that this is genocide. No ifs, no buts, it meets the technical definition of genocide very clearly.)

The Allied forces killed way way way more people than 40 k in WW2.
Millions of civilians died.
An estimated 500 000 civilians in Germany died as a result of allied bombing. That's not counting other countries and other causes.

Was that also genocide?

A war. War is horrible.

You’re entitled to your view. I think you’re wrong.

No, it was WW11. Hitler and the state of Germany clearly declared their intentions and invaded other European countries, committing unspeakable atrocities in the process. And when the war ended there were prosecutions for war crimes. There are rules and international laws observed in war. Israel is breaking that international law. Your comparison is ridiculous.

Presumably you have similar qualification to this poster to be able to expand on why you think they are wrong ?

Apparently you prefer the "guts" of Hamas, who have said that they welcome the "martyrdom" of Gazan civilians because it’s good publicity for making people sympathise with them.

Genocide is also horrible.

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