To have reservations about a friendship with a woman who refers to Israel's actions in Gaza as a genocide?

[Oodiks]

I like this woman a lot, but we have very differing world views, specifically her belief that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

We work at a university and were coming back from lunch together when she commented that she was pleased the protestors hadn't come back. I agreed, noting how nerve wracking it must have been for Jewish students on campus to run the gauntlet of pro-Palestinian / anti-Zionist posters in the encampment.

We'd been talking about the American election over lunch, and I thought we'd agreed that Kamala Harris was the better candidate for her views on climate change, if nothing else, but then my 'friend' commented on Biden/Harris sending arms "to support the genocide" and I was left kind of speechless.

Am I being unreasonable to feel unsure about continuing this friendship?

We’ll never know will we ? Because any Israeli politician who argues for withdrawal from the West Bank is removed from office in one way or another. What does that tell you ? And do you really think that having been given their own land in 1948 Israel did itself any favours by stealing more ? You steal someone’s land, destroy their communities and livelihoods and expect them to just roll over and take it ?

How about the breaches of international law by those who position themselves and their weapons in schools, hospitals etc., or those who a year ago tortured, raped, murdered hundreds of civilians? Are you interested in those too, or only by what you consider the misdeeds of one side in this conflict?

I see youve just ignored my point about the openly ststed intentions of Israel’s enemies. Too difficult to defend or justify?

Not being friends with someone because they agree with something the UN Human Rights Council has stated is ridiculous.

Most people don’t have the time, energy or inclination to look very deeply into a subject and form alternate views. Believing something stated by a very trustworthy and mainstream body like the UN is a completely normal thing to do.

By considering ending your friendship with this woman, because of one thing she said in passing, you are coming across as very nutty/fringe, almost like a conspiracy theorist. It might be time to step back from the internet and this particular topic and gain some perspective.

Your thought process seems very two-dimensional. There were rapes and deliberate attacks on civilians in Dresden and other parts of Saxony in the last days of WWII. In my village civilians were hunted by low-flying aeroplanes. Those were war crimes that cannot be justified.

I don’t know of any other ‘war’ where one nation armed to the teeth engages in the sustained bombardment of unarmed civilians and specifically targets schools and hospitals. Hamas may well welcome the martyrdom of the civilians killed as a result, but has anyone asked the civilians themselves ? Because the last time l looked there have been no elections in Gaza since 2006.

Maybe they should give it a try and see what happens, they won't though will they? The reason Hamas is there in the first place is because of Israel! Also it will be the Palestinians who are wiped off the map

What, the news about how hundreds of innocent civilians, including children, were tortured, raped, murdered, abducted, a year ago? About how some people celebrated that attack and marched in support the next day (before any retaliation or rescue attempts had happened)? About how another group of terrorists, whose main stated aim is to wipe out a nation state, have since fired over 8000 rockets into that country, displacing about 60,000 civilians? Is that the news you meant?

It can’t be defended or justified. But then neither can Israel’s actions since 1948. Those actions are directly to blame for the way the conflict has evolved. They are a colonial, expansionist state. Let me ask you a question. If and when the present conflict in Gaza ends, and the whole of the strip is pretty much annihilated, what do you see happening to the land ? How do you perceive the rebuilding process ?

This

Horrific, cruel, tragic. But not genocide. It does not meet the definition for one. Strong emotions do not get to change the definition of a genocide.

Exactly my point.

So you think Hamas are justified in calling for the death of all Jews, and Hezbollah are justified in calling for the annihilation of Israel? Ok, you’ve made your position clear.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

yes it does. If Palestinians are only allowed to live integrated within Israeli society, killing and displacing all those in Palestine is still genocide.

You are more concerned with a few students' ouchy feelings, while they live in perfect safety, than you are about tens of thousands killed and even more slowly starving to death. It is you who is the worrying one. How self centred do you have to be to think in such a way?

Why would you have reservations about being friends with someone who clearly cares that innocent people are being murdered at the hands of an apparently democratic state? She seems sensible.

I don’t know what you mean by "and the whole of the strip is pretty much annihilated". Are you talking about people (which would be ridiculous) or buildings or tunnels? But assuming you mean buildings and infrastructure, my hope would be that an international coalition would rebuild, and help form a new government with no Hamas members, a government that would focus on improving the lives of the population rather than spending all its aid money in building tunnels and buying weapons. There would also need to be an internationally policed neutral border zone.

I'm Jewish on my dad's side and I think it's a genocide. How can anyone view the number of civilian deaths, particularly women and children and not think this?

It is Hamas/Palestine that wants the genocide of the Jewish people and the destruction of Israel. They have stated over and over that they will repeat October 7 until their mission is accomplished.

The death figures are vastly inflated. The "official numbers" come from mouthpieces of Hamas.

People die in wars.

Fewer Gazans would have died if Hamas stood down and released the hostages on October 8.

Your friend (and many on Mumsnet) have swallowed anti-Israel propaganda.

You are not in the wrong.

No governments are supporting or condoning Hamas on our behalf.

Why are the actions of a terrorist organisation being held up as the moral compass for Israel.

It’s not about giving a shit about Hamas – I don’t, they’re despicable – it’s the fact that innocent civilians are being pro-actively, intentionally murdered and displaced.

The ‘yeah but Hamas made us do it’ line is utterly pathetic.

If a terrorist was hiding in a children’s hospital in Derby, would we blow the entire hospital up and the hundreds of innocent staff, parents and children to get the terrorist?

And then repeatedly say ‘yeah well, he shouldn’t have been in there, he should have gone somewhere where it would be easier to kill him’? Of course not – what would be the point? The entire point of catching the terrorist would be to protect lives. If you destroy the entire hospital, you have achieved nothing. You have become worse than the terrorist.

Palestinian lives however are regarded as valueless and disposable (and let’s face it, inconvenient) to Israel. It’s genocide.

Yes, those news. But unlike you, I didn't change the channel after the first 5 minutes.

Well OP, the people have spoken and most think you are being unreasonable and it IS a genocide. Are you going to reflect on that at all?

The death figures are vastly inflated. The "official numbers" come from mouthpieces of Hamas.

Isreal won't let independent news organisations into Gaza.

One of them being Sinwar, the current Hamas leader who masterminded the attacks on civilians a year ago. I believe while he was imprisoned in Israel his life was saved by Israeli doctors who treated his brain tumour. Nice way of showing gratitude.