To have reservations about a friendship with a woman who refers to Israel's actions in Gaza as a genocide?

[Oodiks]

I like this woman a lot, but we have very differing world views, specifically her belief that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza.

We work at a university and were coming back from lunch together when she commented that she was pleased the protestors hadn't come back. I agreed, noting how nerve wracking it must have been for Jewish students on campus to run the gauntlet of pro-Palestinian / anti-Zionist posters in the encampment.

We'd been talking about the American election over lunch, and I thought we'd agreed that Kamala Harris was the better candidate for her views on climate change, if nothing else, but then my 'friend' commented on Biden/Harris sending arms "to support the genocide" and I was left kind of speechless.

Am I being unreasonable to feel unsure about continuing this friendship?

All over Europe and the US.

it doesn’t start with camps; it starts with dehumanisation.

Jews are not being “dehumanised”, those who are attacking Jews are a minority who cannot understand nuance.

A substantial number of Jewish people have spoken out against the genocide in Gaza, see Jewish Voices for Peace.

This.

And people saying those criticising Israel are anti-Semitic, are you for real?

So do you think anyone criticising awful things that started in Germany during WWII should be called anti-german?

"I’m talking about attacks on Jews and Jewish concerns outside of Israel."

You know very well why attacks on Jewish people and Jewish concerns outside of Israel have increased.

It's because rabid anti-semites and anti-muslims and anti-black-people etc etc will jump at any chance to vent their hatred in any dispute. And you know this.

The rest of us are entitled to criticise both sides in this conflict. And we do.

I would steer well clear of the subject op. There are some very strong views everywhere. Just say the situation is very sad for everyone.

Israel have the right to defend themselves, and it is true that Hamas knew exactly what they were doing, and in my view deliberately provoked this war - encouraged by Russia and Iran.
The situation is much much more complex than a sound bite. This is part of a strategy - along with Ukraine to threaten and dismantle the current world order.

Given its history and trauma Israel was always going to retaliate all guns blazing. Hamas knew this. Hamas do not even value their own population, they have abandoned them, Hamas are not even based in Gaza. But should Israel kill innocent people - of course not. It needs to stop immediately.

This all needs to stop immediately. I would focus on agreeing that with your friend op.

Why are those protesting in favour of Palestine on humanitarian grounds not also holding placards demanding the return of innocent hostages taken on 7 October by Hamas?

So 18000 children have been killed in Gaza alone since October the 7th.
What do you call that?
What fancy term do you want to call it?
I know many Jewish people attending the protests to stop the genocide.
Over 300000 people attended London last Saturday.

I'm guessing you are a dailymail reader and not well informed of what is going on.

My Jewish friends attend every protest there is.
My Christian friends attend the protests.

Over 44000 people dead.

Thank you, that’s pretty much what I did, agreeing that the loss of lives is tragic, and noting it had started long before 1948.

A lot of these Palestinian “criminals” are innocent civilians, including women and children. Israel has been kidnapping Palestinians and holding them hostage for years. But because they’re Palestinian that’s okay, right? “Stupid” to think that innocent Palestinian civilians deserve to be freed, just as the innocent Israeli civilians do.

Pointing out that Israel has behaved disgracefully is not anti semetic. However, Hamas has also behaved disgracefully..
But...if you steal someone else's land they are going to want to take it back.

Why on earth can you not be friends with someone who doesn't share your opinions? Sounds a little unhealthy, OP

Being unsupportive of public relations statements and military actions taken by Binyamin Netanyahu and the Likud Party does not make someone antisemitic, just as criticising Kier Starmer and the British Labour Party does not make someone anti-British, just as being appalled by Donald Trump does not an anti-American make.

Genocide or not - who cares? It certainly is not a good situation. Let's focus our efforts on ending hostilities and having the hostages returned.

I believe that of the 117 hostages that have been returned to Israel, 104 were returned in a temporary ceasefire deal, and 8 being rescued through military action by the IDF. Perhaps with this in mind, a ceasefire deal may be the best way to have the remaining 101 hostages returned.

How do you define the mass displacement and slaughter of innocent women and children? If that's not genocide, what is?

The situation is so complex most people do not understand it fully. The history of this spans almost a thousand years.

Israel ultimately are a traumatised nation. They did not choose this situation, and as such they find themselves in the most terrible predicament.

The people of Gaza did not choose this situation, they find themselves at the mercy of a criminal government hell bent on delivering more suffering and more misery. They are now exposed to the Israeli retaliation caused by their government Hamas.

The innocent people on both sides are the ones suffering the most. I hope it will end soon before it spins completely out of control.

You think people in the UK don't talk about Ukraine, you must have not opened a newspaper in like.... ever.

What I find most disturbing is how the media doesn't show the number of Christian palestians that are being killed in the genocide.
Also let's not forget about the number of Christian palestians that were killed during the 1948 nakba.
Ikrit and biram were Christian neighbourhoods in Palestine before Israeli militant pushed the Christians out telling them they could return after two weeks but were never allowed to.
Following the nakba, the Christians faced the same apartheid regime as the Muslims in Israel.

One of the earliest of these laws was the 1950 Law of Return, which enshrined the right of Jews to come to Israel, settle and automatically receive citizenship. It denied the same right to the expelled indigenous Palestinian population despite the fact that the United Nations had decreed in Resolution 194 that Palestinian should be allowed to return to their homeland and be compensated for the loss of their homes.

Sad. You get thrown out your home. Then get told you have no right to citizenship unless you are Jewish.

https://embraceme.org/blog/christmas-in-bethlehem

Has Israel's actions made it more secure? I think not.

Mass displacement is not genocide. It’s a natural consequence of war.

We do not know casualty numbers, none have been verified. So at this point no one actually knows the scale or extent this will be understood more fully after a full investigation. Hamas are keen to announce huge numbers - it’s certainly in their interests to do so - but it is best to wait until independent reviews are undertaken.

I think we all agree an immediate ceasefire is the best way forward.

I'm starting to think that @Zepper 's opinion of your motivation for starting this thread as being spurious was spot on. You don't want a "reasonable discussion" at all - you just want to shout at strangers on MN because you couldn't shout at your "friend".

What "dehumanisation" all over Europe and the US? Bigots will always "other" minority groups of people they fear or see as being "less" than them (Jews, Muslims, Blacks, Homosexuals, Women, Disabled, etc.) - as repugnant as this is, there's nothing new about it; it's precisely what bigots do. I was heartened to see my fellow citizens protest against the racist thugs' violent disorder in the wake of the Southport stabbings - the decent majority of UK people showed they wouldn't tolerate the minority bigoted view, so try having more faith in the majority of people who are not bigots and who would not choose to dehumanise anyone.

But she is completely correct. It is genocide and the Americans have consistently armed the Israel army
protests on campus sites, as ever, are a way that students can make their voices heard in any war, anywhere

That said, it's shitcall round

Edited as pressed send early

I think she deserves to find a better friend.

And...
The UK is asking for ceasefire
yet supplying the weapons
hypocrisy!

Why is it antisemetic to not agree with a group of people who were given land in another's country, then sytematically start taking more of that land illegally, razing villages and towns to the ground, killing inhabitants, in the process.
That's is genocide
How dare anyone steal land that is not theirs?

Israel is a colonial state committing genocide. Both of these things are recognised by international bodies. Good on your friend for having a strong moral compass.

I have many colleagues who agree with your friend, so it’s clearly not an out there view. Its terrible what’s going on, and innocent people are being slaughtered, you can understand why she has that opinion.