Doubts grow over Labour’s VAT plan for private schools

[Blanketyre]

Article in the Observer here:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/05/doubts-grow-over-labours-vat-plan-for-private-schools

I must say they've gone very quiet on it.

This is the question which no one is answering. Disparity like that is ok apparently, because it’s in the state sector.

And for what it's worth I work at the school with the 6% greater depth! The staff work incredibly hard and the teachers are incredibly talented but there is only so much schools can do. We have the highest number of social services referrals for country

@Applebutt3r

Lazy teachers! Ha! You have no idea. But parents with these…..ideas are a massive part of the problem.

Other than the removal of grammars and privates, I don’t have any. Because I’m not a politician, a policy advisor or an educator. That doesn’t mean my opinion on tax and equality isn’t as valid as someone in opposition to me.

On grammar schools, historically they are more often than not founded on schools that had money and better facilities and grounds in the first place. Combined with reputation, they therefore attract higher calibre and more experienced teachers, which means better quality and consistency of teaching, and wealthier parents, which means more fundraising.

11+ used to be taken by everyone, so this is definitely to blame for creating a two tiered system and comps that became ‘sink schools’. And this still perpetuates to this day – grammars have less SEN children, less children on free school meals, and the those from families in the top 10% of income are the most likely to be offered places. In fact those in the top 1% of households have an 80% chance of being offered a place at a grammar school. No other demographic than a wealthy one enjoys this same chance.

With less children with challenges, they are more desirable to teach in and resources do not have to be pumped into fixing issues. Conversely, the ‘sink schools’ must cope not only cope with these challenges but also cope with them with a high turnover of staff.

A grammar school, really, is just a private school by a different name – afforded by wealth. A snippet of the benefits to comp schools in their removal can be seen in the areas that do not contain grammar schools, in that they have no secondary schools in special measures.

They should get on with it. They don't deserve the better education and wealth/opportunity it brings.

As someone who works in a very deprived school removing private schools or grammars is really not going to do anything. The only outcome I can see is that the 'better' local secondaries will never have a place for our students to go to. That unofficial grammars will be created by rich parents buying up around specific schools.

For me it would be far better to have very good grammars available in all areas and very good technical colleges. It doesn't need to be like the past - both options can be good.

Do you work in a school? We don't have high staff turn over at all. We do have SEN students but they are not a disadvantage to the rest of the school - in fact they are a really important part of our school community. Grammars will have SEN students (SEN doesn't mean low ability).

@Bellaboo568

Yep - so virtuous in claiming a state funded benefit even though she can easily afford not to and then taking the moral high ground by expecting someone else who doesn't claim the benefit to fund it for her. The world has gone mad!!

This. Exactly.

Then they came for the Grammars! Anything to avoid the massive elephant in the room! A large percentage of state schools are crap! Tackle that issue and then it would all improve. Attempting to drag everyone down to a shitty level isn’t the play

It’s comments like this which show that the policy is based on bitterness and envy.

You do realise that, for the parents who can afford the VAT, their children will still be accessing that “better education and wealth/opportunity”? Is that ok as long as their parents are being punished financially?

https://comprehensivefuture.org.uk/facts-figures-and-evidence-about-grammar-schools/

Pupil’s results are no better in grammar schools
Another study of more than 500,000 pupils in England by researchers at Durham University found that “results from grammar schools are no better than expected” once social stratification (such as poverty, ethnicity, language, special educational needs) is taken into account

Also only a third of grammars kept their Outstanding grade with the new Ofsted grading system.

Grammars are not all that.

As I said above, I don’t have the answers. I just don’t agree with the existence of grammars or privates – many people don’t and it’s a valid opinion. If you think grammar schools don’t need to be like the past and want grammars reinstating into areas that removed them or never had them, AND also want to avoid the wealthy elbowing into areas in close proximity to these schools, then that means a substantial overhaul of the education system as we know it – if not a full reform. Which is surely the question on the table in the first place.

Regardless of above, what will prevent the wealthy from essentially buying their place at grammars as they do already? They don’t register academic ability, they register the ability to afford academic ability – tutoring, space and time to study without distraction, the presence of a parent or nanny to ensure study, purchasing more books … the list goes on.

Just because your school doesn’t have a high turnover of staff it does not mean that, widely, the schools that struggle the most are more likely to have a higher staff turnover – they do.

I also did not say that grammars do not have SEN children, I said they have less children with challenges – which is a fact. I also didn’t say that SEN means less ability – I said more pupils with challenges means more resources needed.

Who’s they? Me? You’ll be thrilled to know that my opinion on grammars doesn’t mean anyone’s coming for them. They aren’t.

The cons of grammar schools on wider communities has been well documented for decades – well before the current schools crisis. It’s an opinion that you’ll just have to accept that some people have.

Exactly. It’s why there are so few of them and likely to stay that way.

Good question.

Marketing?

By they, do you mean the parents or children are undeserving?

The weird thing is the people most despised (aka really well off) won’t give a shit either way, the independent sector will become elite.
I just don’t get the crowing over anything that is detrimental to any children and I think it’s really sad that children who have SEN met in the independent sector are likely to suffer disproportionately

I think @Didimum is actually Bridget Phillipson.

It’s already elite.

Adding VAT makes it even more elite as fewer families will be able to afford it - likely the hard working middle class families who scrimp to pay the fees.

lol I happily accept that some people suffer from a severe case of envy and have different views than myself. Those sorts of people swallow poison and wait forothers to perish.
I like to look at the deeper issue and pay no mind to the 7%. Any money raised would be minuscule regardless and the loss far greater. It would make much more sense for debates to be waged against the unfairness of sen children having to do wifhout and to work on solutions to stop the exodus of teachers leaving state schools

And actually the well off parents in our school have paid fees in advance so are unlikely to be affected right now - and in the long run they won't care much.

Perhaps allocation of schools should be stratified by wealth to ensure a mix of pupils in each school. I’d like to see good schools in wealthy areas, where parents are paying a premium for houses, a target for
reform. It’s vastly unfair that income/wealthy buys these children a better quality education.

Actually, is it unfair? Isn't that how the world works. Money buys power. This is the market forces. It incentivises people to work and succeed.

Why is it okay to selectively target some people who use their wealth to buy better education and not others? One person buys a house in a good area, one person pays for private school.

exactly. one is honest and one is not