Doubts grow over Labour’s VAT plan for private schools

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Article in the Observer here:
https://www.theguardian.com/education/2024/oct/05/doubts-grow-over-labours-vat-plan-for-private-schools

I must say they've gone very quiet on it.

Because I like forum debates, I guess. Neither here nor there really.

Good point. And i fail to understand why rich people playing catchment monopoly and driving up house prices in good state school areas are somehow seen as more acceptable than those parents who are honest enough to pay for schooling. (looking at you, dear sister who denigrates me at every turn but who bought a flat in a good area that they did not need)

Certainly will as long as none of my or my kids’ tax revenue is used for childless people. Also I don’t want any of my tax money used for people outside the SE.

What a ridiculous statement. The system is not stand alone or opt in to the things you agree with.

Where would it end if we decided only people with kids paid for schools? Are we doing the same for PIP? Asylum support?

We pay tax to fund society - one that should be built on equality and meritocracy, not propped up by luck of birth.

Yes, I don’t think it’s unusual. Our school staff help teach in state schools.

There's a good website called Schools Together which is linked to the ISC, which gives details of the partnerships that private schools have with state schools, how many hours staff have given and the number of state school pupils involved in those partnerships. As an example - here is Eton's page

https://www.schoolstogether.org/case-studies/?schoolId=680611*

Screenshot below

That may be your dream (rather than "the dream").
My dream (in this domain) is to have a country that moves to a situation similar to the Danish one, where inequalities are addressed via income tax and private education is recognised as an alternative (and supported by government to encourage healthy competition and better outcomes).

Labour's integrity??? Like Starmer saying his son needed peace and quiet to study AFTER his GCSEs yet slams indy schools as offering an advantage? Or that he uses state schools when he lives in a £2 million house in catchment of great state schools? They have no integrity

Ah yes like luck of birth of those kids whose parents can afford tutoring to get them into grammar school? Or whose parents can afford to buy houses in catchment of the best state schools? The state sector perpetuates a postcode lottery of equality.

If doesn’t have to be your fault or the fault of the school – but if they do not contribute to wider benefits for all, which they don’t, then they don’t get to continue to operate as though they do. And includes tax exemptions and awarding of charitable status.

The minister who said her child looked longingly at the playing fields of a private school should note that successive local authorities sold off chunks of playing fields to build houses. My grandchildren now go to a primary school I remember fondly from the mid 80's. Where the playing fields were are now blocks of flats, houses a co-op. A nursery. They're left with a sloping bit of grass and tarmac.

We are looking forward to hearing what they are going to do as it seems our daughter’s (age 2) nursery is going to be subject to VAT because it’s attached to a private school. The nursery serves everyone but the guidance note indicates that as there are five year olds at the nursery (who won’t go on to the private school) everyone is liable for VAT.

You’ll find that a great deal of people who do not support private education don’t support grammar either. The counties that have no grammar schools and areas that not on the border in proximity to a commutable grammar, also have no secondary schools in special measures – there’s a reason for that.

I also googled my own primary schools going back to the 60's those playing fields have either gone for an industrial estate, or in one case it's been sold to a developer and a new primary school with diddly squat amount of grass has been built.

Education is exempt across Europe as a matter of principle. Many countries acknowledge that indy schools relieve pressure on state and provide subsidies to parents who choose indy schools. This is nothing to do with improving state schools.
"Wider benefit for all" can you expand on what that looks like? How do state schools meet this principle when so many are based on catchment areas = wealth? Plus grammars/faith schools? Faith schools don't provide a benefit for all.

Giving your kids an advantage in life. Doesn’t everyone do this for their kids if they can? For example, if they take gymnastics classes, play football, go to dance lessons…

Not everyone could afford these advantages but it doesn’t mean that no one should be able to provide them.

And it can’t be right that if everyone can’t have something no one can. That’s just such an anti achievement approach and means no one has any motivation to succeed, if you can’t work hard in order to make your life better in some way, however you choose to do that.

A much greater percentage of the kids at our local private school go to study medicine than they do from the local college. It’s unequal in that it’s producing more doctors.

There are some advantages you can give to children that benefit society as a whole.

no, clearly that is not the case. The system doesn’t work now, and needs redesign to make sure it is fairer.

Did you misinterpret me saying what society should be doing with what currently happens? The clue was in the word ‘should’.

Just as well you’re not taking your 11+, amirite?!

Yes we know, you want to get rid of choice and shove every child into a 1 size fits all system. A system which doesn't work and fails to meet the needs of many kids. The 1 size fits all system fails more than it benefits.
As parents we need more choice not less.

So you can afford private but yet burden the state with your child's education

Yes shame I took it 30+ years ago

Baroness Ramsey of Wall Heath is reportedly under investigation as the statement does not add up - the only private school with land neighbouring her child's school has not bought any land from the state school.

Whose guidance notes? The school’s or the governments? Childcare provision is exempt from VAT so if the school are implementing that, then that’s on them. Why are there 5yr olds at nursery? Childcare provision (during school hours) ends at 4, so you can’t expect that to come under exemption.

She was exposed as lying

This, actually. Happy to pay more income tax to support society as a whole. Really do object to be singled out for paying for education. Especially when by doing this am actually saving the state money.

You seem to suggest that the private school is better able to teach kids how to go on to be doctors. Correlation is not causation.

It could be that more doctors are able to afford the private fees - and medicine is one of the jobs known to run in families.

There’s also the evidence that shows upbringing / parental influence is vital to achievement; again, those who prioritise education - as exemplified in them paying extra for it - will likely have children who grow up to choose a job that requires significant study.

It doesn’t mean that those same kids wouldn’t have gone on to be doctors had they gone through the state system.

How the hell am I "taking from state school kids by getting into debt to send mine private". If you didn't have to go through all that then I'm really pleased for you but that doesn't change the fact that it's not a binary thing of severe SEN that wouldn't cope in main stream or nothing at all. If you paid even a little bit if attention to relevant posts and news you'd know there's a huge upsurge in EBSA, autism and ADHD diagnosis that do require some form of additional support but do not meet the threshold for EHCPs. Those provisions I mentioned may be theoretically available in some state schools but not in practice, often. Also, if the "normal" setting is unbearable, a child spends all their time in the "time out" space instead of having it as an very occasional refuge, which is not a workable provision.
You obviously have a massive problem with private provision and I doubt anyone on here is going to change your mind, especially as you're apparently not interested in this boring debate.

Correction: I don’t buy into or support the biggest segregator of modern society.