To be appalled that this isn’t murder?

[Bex5490]

Possible the worst headline I’ve read since the woman in France whose husband drugged her and had her raped by strangers…

But what I don’t understand is why it is manslaughter not murder. A violent act is considered murder if the perpetrator intended to do GBH but the person dies in the process.

Is violently raping a woman not intending to do enough harm?

The world is broken. There are rightly or wrongly teenagers on murder charges under joint enterprise laws for being there when spmeone they know has killed someone. If they go somewhere with the intention of beating someone up, even if it isn’t them that turns it into a murder, they can be prosecuted for it. Yet raping a woman isn’t seen as intending to do enough damage?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/37-year-old-mum-raped-33808196

I think sadly the perp could argue their way out of a murder charge here. Better to go for manslaughter and argue foe the max sentence and hopefully custody period will be on a par.

Hi I've copied in the definitions from the CPS site.
I agree with you BEX5490 and Owly11, ramming something deliberately down someone's throat a deliberate and violent act, that has led directly to the death of this woman. Clearly we need more women making and upholding the law.

Manslaughter
Manslaughter is primarily committed in one of three ways:

1. Killing with the intent for murder but where a partial defence applies, namely loss of control, diminished responsibility or killing pursuant to a suicide pact.
2. Conduct that was grossly negligent given the risk of death, and did kill ("gross negligence manslaughter"); and
3. Conduct taking the form of an unlawful act involving a danger of some harm that resulted in death ("unlawful and dangerous act manslaughter").

The term "voluntary manslaughter" is commonly used to describe manslaughter falling within (1) while (2) and (3) are referred to as "involuntary manslaughter".

Murder

Subject to three exceptions (which constitute partial defences to murder, and result in a conviction for manslaughter) the crime of murder is committed, where a person:

• of sound mind and discretion (sane)
• unlawfully kills (not self-defence or other justified killing)
• any reasonable creature (a human being)
• in being (born alive and breathing through its own lungs)
• under the King's Peace (not in wartime)
• with intent to kill or cause grievous bodily harm (in contrast to the offence of attempted murder, where only intent to kill will suffice)

Intent is an ordinary English word. It should not normally be elaborated on or paraphrased. It is different from motive and the prosecution does not have to prove motive, or that grievous bodily harm or death were the outcome wished for. For further consideration where intent might be an issue, see the Judicial College's Crown Court Compendium, Part 1, at 8-1. The suspect's act must be a substantial cause of the death, not necessarily the sole or principal cause.

This is awful, and he 100% should be locked up for the rest of his life - I’m sure he’ll get all the “sex” he can handle in prison.

I saw this article which says she actually died from a heart attack, which could explain why he wasn’t charged with murder. He obviously caused her death, but is a heart attack foreseeable enough for a murder charge to stick?

Link

He stuck it in her mouth until she died.
Agree it should be murder.

Good god, that poor poor woman. What a horrendous way to die 😞

@BakeOffRewatch those poor kids. Losing your mum so young is always traumatic, but knowing how she died ☹️How will they ever come to terms with that?

A young teenager died recently as well from rape. She died of blood loss from internal injuries. It was well publicised but not in the UK. This was also not charged as murder when he left her to die.

These men are horrific. All rape is a violent act. I think death by sexual violence should have special sentence and all those men can be locked up in a nice big room together and left to it. Including those "accidental" strangulations.

This almost sounds like 'death by dangerous raping' and 'death by careless raping' to me.

Crazy.

Castrate the (insert appropriate swear word here) and lock him up in a woman’s prison, so they can make his acquaintance.

Sorry, I am a bit thick but is it more likely that they will get a conviction if they go for manslaughter rather than murder? And then the judge can give him the max possible sentence (hopefully)

This is another disgusting example of what women have to put up with. That link someone posted up thread about men who have had lenient sentences because they claimed ‘sex gone wrong’
is fucking appalling

Well yes. The perp is reportedly a homeless Somalian immigrant. 34 years old

Who knows what his criminal background was. He was left to roam the streets doing what he liked

Pardon me? If you read my comments, you will see they contained reasoned analysis of the legal position and enquiries about social views of particular crimes, not antagonistic statements with no explanation and question dodging.

i remain convinced you are trying to wind people up and am reporting you.

No you don’t have to prove intention to kill the bar is lower than that at intention for GBH. In addition, English law holds that you have to “take your victim as you find them”
so if defendant ‘only’ intended to commit GBH but because the victim had pre existing condition (think haemophilia for example) and died it’s murder.

No. Even castrated it's still a man and a rapist and shouldn't be anywhere near a womens prison. Personally I'd be happy for it just to be destroyed like you would a dangerous dog. There's actual footage of the sickening crime taking place so no way anyone could argue about "miscarriage of justice".

You want to put a man in a woman's prison? Women prisoners have often been through abuse and been victims themselves of male violence. And you want to put a man in there??

I'm so sickened by some of the rape stories I've seen over the past few weeks. It makes me feel like rioting. 😞

We should riot. I don't know why there's not outcry over this.

It isn't stated, but the death was related more likely related to the drug, rather than the rape. THAT SAID, it was what we would call "depraved indifference" in the US, which is manslaughter, not murder, in the eyes of the law. In the eyes of the public, there's little difference. And it was DAMNED sure DEPRAVED!

@FionnulaTheCooler 10000% bring back death penalty these crimes are the perfect time- no questions asked , so clearly and easily proven guilty. Kill him.

Yes, some crimes do deserve death, imo, and I'd be more than happy to pull the lever to administer it myself in cases like these where there is no doubt that the accused is guilty.

@Mamanyt It states in the article her death was caused by the repeated oral rape and not the drugs in her system.

I am wondering this too. If there was a march against MVAWG I would 100% join it. Does anyone know of any organised protest on this issue?

Thanks. Missed that. However, as despicable as that is, LEGALLY, they would have to prove that the oral sex was intended to kill for it to be murder. And that's a damned shame. She was, in my opinion, murdered, no matter the legal term. Time to, perhaps, update some laws. I'm fine with ANY death of a victim during a rape being considered murder, regardless of the cause, myself.

The thing with riots, is that someone has to go first. Are you going to?

Well, chimpanzees or dolphins might... 😬