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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be appalled that this isn’t murder?

176 replies

Bex5490 · 03/10/2024 20:19

Possible the worst headline I’ve read since the woman in France whose husband drugged her and had her raped by strangers…

But what I don’t understand is why it is manslaughter not murder. A violent act is considered murder if the perpetrator intended to do GBH but the person dies in the process.

Is violently raping a woman not intending to do enough harm?

The world is broken. There are rightly or wrongly teenagers on murder charges under joint enterprise laws for being there when spmeone they know has killed someone. If they go somewhere with the intention of beating someone up, even if it isn’t them that turns it into a murder, they can be prosecuted for it. Yet raping a woman isn’t seen as intending to do enough damage?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/37-year-old-mum-raped-33808196

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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CautiousLurker · 03/10/2024 22:06

No - you have to have intent to prove murder. However, the sentences for Manslaughter can be identical to murder - so a maximum sentence may be for life imprisonment.

Yelloworangetomato · 03/10/2024 22:10

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

I didn't say that's what I believed, I said that what some will say. Watch your language, and use your eyes and brain to actually read posts.

Devonshiregal · 03/10/2024 22:18

Lougle · 03/10/2024 20:22

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/ckg21ygky6go

I think this is the case that @Bex5490 is referring to.

I'll be honest, I am not entirely sure how rape can lead to death, especially if the victim is unconscious at the time, but I am probably showing a level of ignorance.

Several ways I’d imagine - suffocation from hands covering mouth/nose. Pressing on neck. Crushing. Any injuries he may have inflicted (hits to the head or chest). I’m not a doctor so I don’t know if internal injuries would be a factor 🤷‍♀️

mapleriver · 03/10/2024 22:21

It's an unpleasant thing to speculate on but I thought the same things and then wondered if she'd aspirated on vomit, horrible case

Autumnismyfavouritetimeofyear · 03/10/2024 22:22

Bex5490 · 03/10/2024 20:27

If you choked someone with your hands would that be murder?

Depends when you form the intention to kill them. If you do it in advance - like you have to wear something on your hands that you have to take with you to carry out the crime - then it is premeditated and that is murder. If you did not plan it in advance, it is manslaughter.

mommatoone · 03/10/2024 22:25

Bex5490 · 03/10/2024 20:19

Possible the worst headline I’ve read since the woman in France whose husband drugged her and had her raped by strangers…

But what I don’t understand is why it is manslaughter not murder. A violent act is considered murder if the perpetrator intended to do GBH but the person dies in the process.

Is violently raping a woman not intending to do enough harm?

The world is broken. There are rightly or wrongly teenagers on murder charges under joint enterprise laws for being there when spmeone they know has killed someone. If they go somewhere with the intention of beating someone up, even if it isn’t them that turns it into a murder, they can be prosecuted for it. Yet raping a woman isn’t seen as intending to do enough damage?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/37-year-old-mum-raped-33808196

It's about intent OP x

Thelnebriati · 03/10/2024 22:33

Restricting someone's breathing with your penis is not an accident. I find it hard to believe the charge is manslaughter.

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 03/10/2024 22:34

It is a horrible, violent crime. I doubt if the perpetrator will see the light of day again or at least not until he is very old so the consequences will be the same as if it was murder.

I'd guess he'll get six years and be out in three.

She was a stranger to him, vulnerable and unconscious on a park bench. And the filthy fucker doesn't even have the decency to plead guilty. It's dragged on for over three years as well, the toll on her family must be unimaginable.

I'd see him in the ground.

sussexman · 03/10/2024 22:37

Genevieva · 03/10/2024 21:43

You don’t. You have to show intention and premeditation to kill or do serious harm. So if you set out to brutally assault them and they die of the injuries you inflicted, you are guilty of murder, not manslaughter. The issue raised by the OP is the clear sexism in treating rape as less serious than physical assault in a case where rape leads to the death of the victim. It’s a clear discrepancy.

As a man, I enter this discussion with some trepidation. Those who are saying that an offence of rape is GBH (and I do hear you on that) would you wish then to consolidate the two offences? ISTM that there is a benefit and a public interest in calling out sexual offences specifically, but it is almost inevitable then that differences in charges and potential sentences will arise.

Thelnebriati · 03/10/2024 22:38

Men who have sex with women who did not consent may genuinely believe they are 'having sex' and 'don't intend any harm'; but its rape, and their belief in their own innocence shouldn't be an acceptable legal defence.

Genevieva · 03/10/2024 22:45

sussexman · 03/10/2024 22:37

As a man, I enter this discussion with some trepidation. Those who are saying that an offence of rape is GBH (and I do hear you on that) would you wish then to consolidate the two offences? ISTM that there is a benefit and a public interest in calling out sexual offences specifically, but it is almost inevitable then that differences in charges and potential sentences will arise.

Your question isn’t wholly relevant to the response I wrote but I will say this:

  1. Other countries, eg the US, are much better than us at charging for multiple overlapping crimes simultaneously and handing out sentences that run consecutively rather than concurrently. This can result in some absurdly long sentences at times, but at least it doesn’t permit light sentencing for serious crimes.
  2. There is a clear distinction between rapes that are traumatising because of physical violation and psychological harm and rapes that are all of that AND cause GBH. At the moment they are not classes as two connected crimes. Hence the lack of a murder trial in this case.
Cockerpooslave · 03/10/2024 22:46

MissMeMiss · 03/10/2024 21:07

@Cockerpooslave what makes you think that?

What makes me think what? Would you be willing to answer the question, orare you on a windup?

springbabydays · 03/10/2024 22:50

So.... are men unaware of the fact that oral sex can cut off the air supply/ trigger the gag reflex?

Are they really that fucking stupid?

Ugh. It's absolutely murder in everything but name OP.

Newtrix · 03/10/2024 22:53

Bex5490 · 03/10/2024 20:25

Maybe it’s ignorant of me to think it should be murder and shows my lack of knowledge of legal terms. I just think that this has to be amongst the worst crimes. Manslaughter to me implies something accidental.

Not ignorant at all, I think he should be charged with everything possible and never let out.

DinosaurMunch · 03/10/2024 22:54

Ghouella · 03/10/2024 20:59

I think the justification would be that rape alone may not carry the intention of causing harm - physical, psychological or in terms of transmission of an illness. Though some rapes will intentionally include these elements, many others will not - the motive being purely sexual / paraphilic and steps possibly even being taken to reduce the victim's awareness of the rape having happened.

I don't say this to minimise the seriousness of rape in any context and I agree with you in this case the charge should be murder. But I think legally that would be better achieved by altering the definition of murder to include killing that occurs as a result of rape, rather than by conflating rape and GBH.

Edited

Rape is usually about power not about sex. There are plenty of people willing to have consensual sex. There's no need to rape to get sex.

I don't see how you can rape without the intent to cause harm. Rape is inherently harmful

MrsPinkCock · 03/10/2024 22:55

It’s a technicality.

If you intend to hurt someone but not kill them then it’s still murder if your actions cause the death.

Perhaps at common law rape is treated as SA and not “harm”, hence the loophole. But I’m not a criminal lawyer.

I would imagine that the post mortem didn’t show his actions caused her death, or the charge would be different. Either that, or the CPS just proceeded with the charge they were most likely to secure a conviction for.

Horrific case though.

MrsPinkCock · 03/10/2024 22:57

Also to those saying it’s about “intent” - it’s about intent to harm. That’s enough. It doesn’t have to be intent to murder if the victim dies.

An unusual case with probably selective reporting.

DinosaurMunch · 03/10/2024 22:58

Bex5490 · 03/10/2024 21:00

So sorry to hear of these injustices@StMarieforme and @Blusterydaytodaypoohbear . I honestly don’t understand any of the sentencing laws. It feels like everyone thinks they’re ridiculous but they’re too complicated to change so the legal process just plods along.

They mostly only get changed if someone legally challenges them. Or sometimes through a parliamentary bill. But it's a slow process and a lot of laws are extremely sexist and old fashioned. There have been advances such as making coercive control a crime, changes to the way domestic violence is viewed, rules that a woman's history can't be used against her if she makes rape allegations etc. Historically women are treated more harshly than men and sex offences against women are treated very leniently.

For a very interesting read on recent law changes, try sister in law by Harriet wistrich

Miniopolis · 03/10/2024 23:00

Bex5490 · 03/10/2024 20:34

But my question is what constitutes GBH? How is the damage from violently raping someone seen as less than the damage caused by hitting someone with a baseball bat for example.

I agree.

ThatsNotMyTeen · 03/10/2024 23:01

Absolutely horrific

poor woman

Cockerpooslave · 03/10/2024 23:01

Ghouella · 03/10/2024 21:12

I'm not the person you quoted but I think conflating GBH and rape would have the unintended consequence of contributing to the perception that rape is always violent or comes from somebody who obviously intends to harm you.

Ultimately the essential definition of rape is penetration without consent. It's consent of the person being raped (or lack thereof) that's important, not the intentions of the person committing the rape, how the rape is conducted, nor whether harm is perceived by either party. In that sense rape is a very different / separate crime than GBH, though both may be said to occur at the same time in one act.

What I would say is that in the case of whether a murder charge can be applied, intention to rape should be elevated to the same position as intention to commit GBH. That's much more straightforward I think also than having to mix up GBH and rape.

Edited

I don’t disagree with most of your analysis, nor am I proposing the conflation of the offences or rape and GBH. I was more interested in the simple statement my that poster, as I do wonder whether it gives us information about the societal discounting of violence against women and girls.

notwithstanding the above, the definition of gbh is the infliction of serious bodily harm intentionally or recklessly, with bodily harm including psychological or psychiatric harm. Therefore I don’t see why rape (where as you say the lack of consent, which includes where the perpetrator is reckless as to whether or not there is consent, is the determining feature) can’t also be gbh (perpetrator reckless as to the physical or psychological harm inflicted) and treated as seriously- note again gbh generally has higher conviction and longer sentences because again many people don’t take rape seriously ( it’s just”unwanted sex”, he didn’t mean it, it’s not that bad, does he deserve to have his life ruined etc).

Until we start taking sexual crimes against women and girls as seriously as mainstream violence there will never be societal change- so do him for both rape and gbh, because he clearly didn’t give a fuck what happened to her, and if that isn’t recklessness then I don’t know what is.

DinosaurMunch · 03/10/2024 23:03

LaerealSilverhand · 03/10/2024 21:10

The problem with this approach is that it will result in lots of acquittals as juries are notoriously squeamish about convicting for serious offences at the best of times and doubly so when it involves an activity that they all do themselves (driving). This is why drivers who kill are not charged with manslaughter but with the lesser offence of causing death by dangerous/careless driving. When they were charged with manslaughter juries routinely let them off.

Yes, there's a strong argument that driving cases should not be tried by jury for this reason

DinosaurMunch · 03/10/2024 23:11

Bex5490 · 03/10/2024 20:19

Possible the worst headline I’ve read since the woman in France whose husband drugged her and had her raped by strangers…

But what I don’t understand is why it is manslaughter not murder. A violent act is considered murder if the perpetrator intended to do GBH but the person dies in the process.

Is violently raping a woman not intending to do enough harm?

The world is broken. There are rightly or wrongly teenagers on murder charges under joint enterprise laws for being there when spmeone they know has killed someone. If they go somewhere with the intention of beating someone up, even if it isn’t them that turns it into a murder, they can be prosecuted for it. Yet raping a woman isn’t seen as intending to do enough damage?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/37-year-old-mum-raped-33808196

What I don't get is why is he denying rape when it's all on CCTV?

Peaceandquietandacuppa · 03/10/2024 23:21

I don’t think I will sleep tonight now, that poor poor woman. It’s just relentless.

Ghouella · 03/10/2024 23:27

DinosaurMunch · 03/10/2024 22:54

Rape is usually about power not about sex. There are plenty of people willing to have consensual sex. There's no need to rape to get sex.

I don't see how you can rape without the intent to cause harm. Rape is inherently harmful

So far example, dreadful story I am aware of is a man who raped a number of young men whom he drugged. Many of whom were not aware they had been raped. His intention was certainly not to cause them physical harm or even psychological harm. Although of course, this did happen when they became aware of the rapes (after footage he kept was discovered by the police) - it was clearly not his intention that they should ever become aware of the rapes.

Now you're quite right - in the above instance these rapes were about power. Clearly the man in the above example had a sexual interest in raping somebody drugged and unconscious - and that was probably rooted in the extreme power dynamic of that situation. Nevertheless it was that sexual interest which motivated him not an intention to cause harm to the victims.

Another hypothetical example might be a healthcare worker has sex with a patient in a permanently unconscious, vegetative state - if they use lubricant, a condom there may be no physical harm. If the person is incapable of becoming aware they were raped there is no psychological harm. Is this GBH? What it definitely is, is rape, an obscene crime which should be punished.

I think it's a misconception that rape isn't about sex, it very often is about sex.

In this instance the victim was not known to her attacker and was unconscious. He wasn't doing this to punish her, enjoy her suffering or because of some relationship they had (I assume on the information available). He did it because the situation of her being vulnerable and unconscious was sexually exciting to him. I know that's hideous but there It is. It was about sex, and it was also about power.

I don't say any of this to minimise or exonerate, these are heinous crimes. Nevertheless I don't think it is helpful to categorise rape as GBH. It loses focus on the essence of rape which is penetration without consent, whether harm can be demonstrated or not.