To be appalled that this isn’t murder?

[Bex5490]

Possible the worst headline I’ve read since the woman in France whose husband drugged her and had her raped by strangers…

But what I don’t understand is why it is manslaughter not murder. A violent act is considered murder if the perpetrator intended to do GBH but the person dies in the process.

Is violently raping a woman not intending to do enough harm?

The world is broken. There are rightly or wrongly teenagers on murder charges under joint enterprise laws for being there when spmeone they know has killed someone. If they go somewhere with the intention of beating someone up, even if it isn’t them that turns it into a murder, they can be prosecuted for it. Yet raping a woman isn’t seen as intending to do enough damage?

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/37-year-old-mum-raped-33808196

The previous case of rape and murder in the news some years ago's 'defence' was that he (and I'm trying not to throw up here) found the victim's body and decided to take advantage of somebody else killing her first.

That one was found guilty anyway.

Murder is a complicated offence to prosecute. It's a common law offence and death being the reasonable outcome of a defendant's actions has been held as sufficient proof of oblique intent in certain circumstances.

This case defies belief. It's obscene.

And I believe that being found guilty of manslaughter might still warrant a life sentence.

It's not all men, but it's always a man. The things they'll do when they think they won't be held accountable show us what they really think of us.

I read in the paper about this Womens death and feel so sorry for her family including teenage children, how on earth do you deal with a death like this and in the public domain . I hope this man gets a life sentence.

This is truly disturbing. They need to make the sentences for rape higher.

Not that longer sentences would be much of a deterrent. People commit crimes (including rape) because they figure they can get away with it. And they're usually right, sadly.

A violent act is not considered murder if the perpetrator intended to commit GBH.

Legally, murder is where someone is killed and the perpetrator intended to kill them. In a situation where the victim dies but the perpetrator didn't have the intention to kill (mens rea) the charge will always be manslaughter.

Murder is an automatic life sentence, manslaughter is Judge's discretion.

Thank you for your kind words. This is an interesting conversation to have in regards to should it be charged as a sex crime or an act of violence. In my case it’s being charged as both but as different cases (as I like to call it the act and the consequence).
But the legal system here works in curious ways, as a rape survivor my therapist can talk on my behalf but I am merely a scene of crime. As a survivor of the physical I am allowed to talk and be a witness but not mention the sex crime (even though my rape and what he did to me whilst raping me is the crime).

at the end of the day, I hope the rapist/perpetrator of this case the thread is about gets charged. I also hope that whatever he is charged with gives her family a peace of mind but no matter the label he’d get, it won’t make it easier for them.

I agree, this is absolutely a horrendous crime, and it should be murder. There are a lot of dreadful things you can do to someone and surely if you decide to do them you must know the victim could die, eg a heart attack from the shock/pain etc. I think the British justice is a joke. I know what I’d like to do to the man in question 😡

Not quite right. ‘Reasonably foreseeable’ isn’t enough for murder. There has to be a specific intent to cause either death or GBH. Specific intent includes both specifically intending the consequence, or doing something which it would be virtually certain would lead to the consequence.

So the question here would be ‘was it virtually certain that the oral rape would lead to at least GBH?’ Now I confess I haven’t read the details and I really can’t face it at this time of night, but I can see how the prosecutor would think there was not a reasonable prospect of a jury answering that with a yes.

An utterly vile crime though, and I can see exactly where OP is coming from.

Oral rape where someone dies should be murder.

fucking horrendous.

That poor lady and her family, I can’t even begin to imagine how they must be feeling.

this has genuinely made me feel sick. And fucking terrified for my daughters. That poor lady.

Yes, this. "Murder" and "manslaughter" have very specific meanings under the law. I doubt that the people involved did this with the intent to kill. That would have been murder. It is, legally, manslaughter, but with complete depraved indifference to what might happen to that poor woman. People who would do this have no business EVER walking around free again!

No murder does not require premeditation- most don't.

It sickens me that we share a world with people capable of doing such hideous atrocities
What the fuck.
Poor poor woman and her family
This has really got under my skin

this is absolutely horrific this poor young woman and her family

it’s is because the intention wasn’t to murder her not that he cared if she died but that unfortunately isn’t relevant

but rape and manslaughter he should I hope get a very long sentence

He should get the max.

This is the real issue. Rapes are rarely prosecuted and those who are found guilty get off far too leniently. It's disgusting. While it generally doesn't result in death, the victim lives with the consequences the rest of their lives. It changes you forever.

You don't have to intend to kill for murder, you have only to intend to cause serious harm. I think this case meets the threshold for murder but is much harder to prove beyond reasonable doubt. Just hope he gets an appropriate sentence.

Animals would not do this.

I agree sentencing for sex crimes is too light, but there has to be a difference between sentences for rape and murder, or more rapists would have an incentive to murder as well as rape.

I agree.

Seems fair, but at the same time, I don't think men who murder and rape women stop to think about the relative punishments if they get caught. They're not thinking about being caught.

That's exactly my point. They might be more likely to murder the woman if the sentence was about the same so that they would not be caught.

But then successful prosecution are so rare anyway, so many are getting away with rape.