To think whatever your social class, if you’ve got immature parents, the odds are stacked against you

[ThelmaKare]

Inspired by the thread that middle class children are more confident - I had a firmly muddle class upbringing - two university educated parents (Oxbridge) who both had top professional jobs.

However, if something wasn’t quite to her liking my mum couldn’t act like an adult. She had tantrums. meltdowns, also had a short stay in a psychiatric hospital.

As soon as she got home she headed straight for the drinks cabinet and was plastered through all my main school exams. My Dsd failed to confront her and just normalised her drunken antics - looked on indulgently and swept them under the carpet. My mum was at times violent towards me.

i had low self esteem - I was fat, miserable, aggressive svd violent in school and swore at the teachers. I was also severely bullied and humiliated. I got into sexual activity early. I massively underachieved at school and had no real friends.

After one of my mum’s violent episodes she’d often be remorseful next day and seek to explain her behaviour away using some lame reason.

My parents both very high achievers but terrible on a personal /emotional level.

Looking back also, my parents had no real, genuine friends.

So AIBU in thinking it’s not social class so but maturity of parents that’s important to a child’s confidence?

I’m so sorry OP that sounds awful. You’re right that the mental stability and behaviour of your parents is likely to have a big effect on the quality of your childhood.
Perhaps it would be better for you to think of there being multiple things that are likely factors to affect upbringing, childhood, outcomes. None of them are a definite- someone can have a very impoverished upbringing and still turn out fine and well grounded etc. They’re all likely contributing factors but aren’t 100% decisive.

It’s not ok for people to say “well it’s ok for you, you had a nice middle class household” or “well it’s ok for you, your parents were sane” or “it’s ok for you, you’ve not got terrible health problems”. There are always other factors that stack up and contribute. Overall, it’s likely to be worse if there are several of these factors, but nothing is a given - this is all just probabilities.

Exactly this way of thinking is so hypocritical!

Thank you ❤️

That’s silly. You seem to be suggesting middle-class parents cannot, by definition, be alcoholics, violent or mentally ill, if it means they are ‘uninvolved’ in their child’s education?

I have said to clients that sometimes people are in therapy to deal with all the people in our lives who refuse to go to therapy.

There are many people from disadvantaged and poor, sometimes extremely poor, backgrounds who have gone on to achieve great things.

Those brought up by "immature" (to use the OP's word) parents, less so.

No, the things you describe have nothing to do with maturity or immaturity. Dysfunctional would be a much better term.

It does sound to me that she suffered from a mental illness rather than being immature too. And / or perhaps was neurodivergent? I know MN hates anyone to mention that.

It doesn’t help you now I know. But it might help you to understand and come to terms with how she was.

Much like you’ve described your own issues caused by your parents, perhaps she had similar trauma?

I agree with you, OP, and I'm so sorry you experienced that. It can't be denied that a parent's fundamental approach to life - their ability to regulate their own emotions, put their children first, be kind and supportive, foster a sense of self-esteem and resilience - is going to have a huge impact on those children, regardless of their social class, financial income or family background.

As another poster says, 'middle class' children are statistically more likely to experiences adverse childhood experiences - but statistics only ever tell part of the story. I work in a primary school and we most definitely have plenty of technically 'middle class' parents who would fall into your 'immature' category (though as others have said, I'd probably describe it as dysfunctional rather than immature). And we have other parents who might have far less in terms of education level, or material wealth, but who are just far more sensible (the biggest compliment I can give a parent!) and whose children are almost certainly going to have a more positive life experience overall.

Sounds awful but I wouldn’t call this immature. She didn’t need to grow up. She needed psychiatric help.

Two stable, loving parents are the greatest gift any child can have- regardless of class.

A volatile, violent parent who ''loses it'' and thrashes them and beats them - no matter what class- this child will be extremely emotionally damaged, and the damage will linger long into their adult life.

I completely agree with you OP. My parents were middle class in the sense that they were educated and cultured. However, they were selfish and immature with no ability to put their children first. As a result I had an intermittently impoverished and abusive childhood. I have spent my entire adulthood learning how to be 'normal', in order to provide a stable upbringing for my own children.

As a pp said, a warm and stable upbringing is the new generational wealth. When I look at my contemporaries who were middle-class AND had parents who were up to the job, they were usually 5-10 years ahead of me in terms of having their shit together. I have had to put in huge amounts of work to just have what is natural to people like that.

Edited to add: of course, if you grow up in a family that is working-class/poor, your parents are more vulnerable to being unable to emotionally regulate and therefore give you a stable upbringing, because of the inherent pressures. If you are not worried about housing or money or violence it is easier to be a calm and consistent presence.

I am so sorry you experienced this.

As other posters have said, your Mum was plagued with mental illness and your father was inadequate. There is one hell of a lot of research that shows babies and children who have parents with poor mental health (and by poor mental health, I mean UNTREATED conditions) experience direct harm and are much more likely to experience social isolation, low confidence and MH difficulties themselves. Your experience is a direct reflection of this.

As a PP suggested, look at ACE - the more of these experienced in childhood, the higher the chance of MH difficulties as an adult and lack of coping mechanisms. They are also far more likely to have Personality Disorders and this is one of the hardest conditions to treat in MH

When I worked in MH, the overwhelming majority of people who came through our doors had some level of trauma at some stage of their life. There was a correlation with more serious conditions and worse childhood

Values? No sorry I don’t see this

OP I'm sorry you were subjected to abuse and i m glad you are unpacking it.

FWIW I think the use of the term immature is immaterial, perhaps ignorance is better, they were blissfully ignorant to the impacts of their behaviour. When they couldn't deny it, they covered it up or explained it away to suit tgemself. I would say obstinanetly ignorant. They chose not to see it or own it. As, I think, was typical of the time. They were the products of their environment and era.

Modern technology is assisting with the sharing of knowledge and we are all becoming more aware and more analytical.

We are all unpacking certain traumas, or at least the vast majority of us are. It's part of human evolution.

I love these threads as it helps me unpack.

I had a kind, emotionally unregulated, alcoholic father who joined AA and faced his addiction, with zero support from workaholic, emotionally unregulated, fundamental Catholic cultish mother. Mother wanted to live in a bubble she could cope with, denies certain realities, edits reality to suit her happy bubble/happy place. Layers and layers of enabling. Mother preferred medicated people. Medicate men with alcohol, women with anti depressant drugs etc. Control men with alcohol, women with drugs, she was a nurse.

We were quite wealthy growing up, neither of my parents had been wealthy in their youth. So the wealthy times were quite joyful. We had a wealthy household with a working class mentality. There was lots of immature fun, there was a regular party atmosphere, and a general lack of respect for authority. Of course you can't party forever, it eventually catches up via addiction and subsequent ill health and treatment.

No sensible adult behaviours were modelled to me: the model was work, take chances, work, get on with life, have children, have fun. There was zero risk assessment.

My siblings and I benefitted in many ways and are also unpacking and learning as we meander through life.

Hmm, I don't think there's good evidence one way or another. Both are disadvantageous (and i think bad parenting possibly likely to have worse effects on confidence, but the jury's out on the impact on life chances). But growing up poor is more likely to be part of a successful persons 'story' (as something theyre proud of) than growing up with shit parents- that's perhaps why you feel as if it's more likely.

Anyway, I broadly agree with the OP- it must have been shit.

Well your Mum had MH issues severe enough to need a hospital stay so it will have influenced your upbringing greatly. DH Dad went to Oxford and he was obnoxious and a real bully. Personality is innate and then experiences shape us. Those personalities may need to be crushed to stay safe. Children need to feel secure and loved and have good boundaries and routines, class is irrelevant here though people do have more pressure regarding money so that can also influence.

Yes escaping poverty through hard work or acumen is a success story (even though the reality is often connected with right place, right time in the economic circumstances of the era).

Accepting parents were imperfect traumatised human beings, who didn't parent as well as they could have is not something to be personally proud of.

Actually @Mnetcurious has mentioned something quite significant- that I’ve been thinking about -,that I was going to bring up way before this thread !!

you say I didn’t necessarily have a middle class upbringing- well this is something I’ve thought about myself

I’m an only child and my Mum went back to work STRAIGHT after I was born. I wasn’t privately educated so was one of the kids who suffered the free milk being taken off us - this may give a clue as to my approx age 🤣

Anyway - an only child with 2 full time working parents with jobs that often took them abroad to conferences etc. I watched a HELLUVA lot of TV and absolutely loved it ! So from the early to mid 80s I was absolutely glued to the TV and watched just about every programme going !!!

My mum would take me on holiday where there would be working class kids of uneducated parents - think Solana Hotel, Benidorm vibe? Result was I would go off with these kids and she would drink. Result!

The outcome of this is that I found I got on better with these working class kids and found the middle class kids in my very predominantly middle class state school too precious and unrelatable, if you will, and when I got back to the UK would decline invites to go out with them. I found I could be myself around the working class kids much more and genuinely enjoyed their company more.

So I agree that I didn’t have a conventionally middle class upbringing despite being staunchly middle class on paper. I was an only child who was left to my own devices as my mum drank - I found the middle class ‘norm’ in my area was -

sibling close in age
mum stays at home while Dad’s a lawyer or similar
no sign of dysfunction- but admittedly doesn’t mean it’s not happening

so would you agree that I didn’t have a very ‘conventional’ middle class upbringing and in some ways it seemed more working class ?

Just wanted to add - working class in terms of the more free reign element to it I meant

Yes I would agree and it resonates with me.

Drinkers like to surround themselves with other drinkers, your mum possibly enjoyed the working class holiday vibe too.

Did your parents grow up wealthy?

No - neither grew up wealthy

Really sorry to hear about your experiences. I would agree it sounds like your parents' issues went further than immaturity. The family was affected by addiction, abuse and psychiatric health problems. That's both your mother's direct experiences and your father's lack of ability to cope plus any social issues of his own he may have had.

However, I agree with your main point. my parents, I would say, mainly coped with the practicalities of life but were definitely very immature. My mother absolutely still is, my father who is unusually clever but I don't think ever wanted us around, has just withdrawn. It has affected my self esteem enormously. I don't want to go into all the ways but it has. one example, I spent a lot of time since being very small acting as a confidante to my mother and reassuring her about whatever her insecurity was about that day. Also I wasn't the child they wanted, and served up some absolutely awful repeated criticism. Not always shouted in anger but with no thought to how it might affect a child

I think the truth is that bad parenting damages children, whether that is down to neglect, addiction, aggression, indifference, violence, over-expectation, or over-indulgence.

As I have got older, I've become convinced that parenting classes should be widely available, free or heavily subsidised, and strongly encouraged, especially for men.

It's definitely multi faceted, and I think it's narrow minded of the people who assume because someone grew up in a middle class household everything was fine. However, I do think it still plays a part; imagine having a harmful, chaotic, alcoholic parent and also not having money to eat, having a crappy education etc as well. I don't mean it's a competition, just that all of these factors are important and make a difference on their own and in combination with eachother.