We will dance again

[namechange11112222]

I have just watched this documentary and it broke my heart.
Hamas are revolting monsters, I can't call them animals because animals wouldn't even do that.

I do wonder how the younger, very outspoken generation would:

1. Feel if that was a festival they went to and watched their friends get slaughtered
2. Have said if there were social media at the time of WW2

Would we have been viewed in the same way Israel has been? The causalities of war were far greater.

I do not support the way in which Benjamin Netanyahu is going about this war at all but I 100% agree with Israel's right to defend itself.

They seem to be the only war I can think of where a country being attacked from all sides, from countries who do want mass extermination of Jewish people (do the younger generation still get taught about the holocaust anymore) who are repeatedly being told to stand down by the west.

To remind the younger generation of previous war casualties (for anyone with the argument that this war is completely out of proportion):

WW1

• UK - 885,000 deaths
• Germany - over 2 million deaths

WW2 - is this proportionate?

• 1.5 - 3 million deaths in Germany
• 210,000 dead - Nuclear bombs into Japan

• 70,000 innocent dead - England

Iraq War

• 179 English soldiers
• 4,492 US soldiers
• 186 - 210,000 Iraqi civilians

No civilian should ever be harmed in war, it is evil however it is inevitable.
How many Jewish people should be killed for Israel to be supported in defending themselves.
So the "the death toll is completely out of proportion" argument doesn't stand.

Yes, we can go back to the time before the bible and argue who has the right to the land. But this current war was started by Hamas and Hezbollah the following day.

However, please don't try to say they want mass extermination of Jewish people just because of the land.
People spitting on a naked woman's dead body when brought back into Gaza, footage filmed by Hamas.

Lets call this what it is pure racism, just like the Nazi's, who killed 6 million Jewish people.

Gently , gently, so so gently, you are wrong.

The UN have called it a genocide multiple times.

https://www.un.org/unispal/document/anatomy-of-a-genocide-report-of-the-special-rapporteur-on-the-situation-of-human-rights-in-the-palestinian-territory-occupied-since-1967-to-human-rights-council-advance-unedited-version-a-hrc-55/#:~:text=Over%2030%2C000%20Palestinians%20have%20been,population%20has%20been%20forcibly%20displaced.

Ugh OP, this post comes across as so ignorant, uneducated and one-sided. What Israel has been doing to Palestinians for literally YEARS is despicable. To act like Hamas just randomly attacked Israel for no reason is absolutely ridiculous. I literally can't even be bothered to go into how wrong this post is, on so many levels. Just go and look into it yourself, for goodness sake.

Whatever the background to 7 October, nothing excuses what was actually done. What Hamas did was mass depravity. And you've glossed over that, the violent butchery, torture, maiming and killing of innocent women and children, like it's nothing.
I think it's you that needs to go and look at yourself.

What I don’t understand is why the Israelis want to take over Palestine. In 1948 when Jewish people were given most of the land in Israel, displacing hundreds of thousands of its existing inhabitants, why did they want to take more of it?

Israel was attacked in 1948 and again in 1967, on both cases they gained territory. If they hadn't been attacked, their territory wouldn't have expanded. Hopefully you do understand now.

Don’t forget we ( NATO) intervened in Yugoslavia as there was ethnic cleansing going on.

A genocide can be defined as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

How is what is happening in Gaza NOT a genocide? 🤔

Literally entire families have been wiped out. Many who are still alive are now suffering from starvation, poor sanitation and a lack of medical facilities. These conditions are not exactly conducive to life and survival. I fail to see how how it can be interpreted as anything other than a genocide?

I honestly think anyone who doesn’t see that Hamas need to be eradicated and the war needs to continue until they put up the white flag of surrender, didn’t pay enough attention to October 7th.

Theres a 45 minute horror film of Hamas slaughtering children, mothers, families. Filmed by their own cameras as they whoop
with joy. I suspect it’s now available to watch online, I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. But you can easily find articles by people who’ve seen it.

That’s what Israel is dealing with and the war should continue until Islamic extremism has been eradicated.

@Tellysavelas More selective reading

The special rapporteur concluded there were grounds to believe a threshold had been met

The pp said the IJC had ruled a genocide. They, and you, are incorrect

How is what is happening in Gaza NOT a genocide?

When the UK bombed Nazi Germany was it a genocide?

@Hagr1d

Your first sentence
"A genocide can be defined as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group."

Apart from the fact there is a legal verdict of genocide, that whole sentence is what is debated. No one is saying people aren't being killed in large numbers but for what purpose. That would define a genocide.

And as genocides go, Israel are pretty bad at it then, as the population of gaza is growing

I honestly think anyone who doesn’t see that Hamas need to be eradicated and the war needs to continue until they put up the white flag of surrender,
Eradicated as in slaughtered? War as in annihilation? 43,000 innocent people who just happen to live or breathe in the vicinity? Wake up.

I was responding to your post, which didn’t specify ICJ.

In any case, the ICJ ruled that Gaza Palestinians had a plausible right to be protected from genocide, which is as far as they can say without the USA withdrawing their funding.

"Ugh" could you explain what you mean please

If hamas didn't massacre without a reason, are you saying that they were justified on 7th October?

I'm sorry, I don't understand.
What then happened to the land? Was it kept and settled by Israelis? Or kept as some sort of empty buffer zone? Why wasn't the land given back?

No sane person can justify oct 7. It isnt possible to justify barbaric murder of innocent people.

But this idea that hamas can be eradicated isn't true. I think it is just going to produce more people who want to fight back.

Socrates said "you can kill a man but not an idea"

He wasn't wrong.

Israel provokes Palestinians by letting settlers on their land, Palestinians respond. Israel cries it’s been attacked.

Ad nauseum.

Hello everyone, we hid this thread while we dealt with the numerous reports. May we ask that you please post within guidelines moving forward, Mumsnetters who continually breach our guidelines may have their accounts suspended which, as ever, is something we would rather avoid.
MNHQ

Absolutely true. We can expect this conflict to continue in one form and other for ? How many years . A new generation of terrorists have been cemented and now do we understand what can create the breeding ground for terrorism ? To see the killing of all the people around you ?

my post was deleted. In my very short post I mentioned that Hamas wanted the eradication of Israel and Jews and that Hamas are terrorists. All factual and absolutely no reason for the post to be deleted. Ill wait for this
one to be deleted now....

Why were Israel attacked?

Yes...borders are redrawn all the time. New countries are formed. Just look at northern Cyprus.

Because the surrounding Arab nations didn't want self-determination for Jewish people in their (the Jewish people's) homeland, because they were anti-Semitic. They'd much rather have it all to themselves, which is what they were trying to achieve but failed miserably.

Jerusalem and the holy land is a special place . Also very fertile . To answer the question. Christian, Judaism and Islam consider this land sacred.

Following your logic, the borders can be withdrawn in Israel, to return some of the occupied (stolen) land to the Palestinians who inhabited it. Israel has been creating borders in its favour for decades. It needs to stop. It is an occupation, it is apartheid (Amnesty International) and academics and genocide experts see it as a genocide.

An ordinary person who sees mass slaughter for 12 months and the decimation of infrastructures plus the blocking of aid can call it a genocide if they wish. It pretty much fits the definition. The government continues to make its intent clear: to raze Gaze; to rid the land of Palestinians.

Palestine is a state, recognised by the majority of the UN members. It has its own flag, its own government, universities and schools (a governed education system) and a government health care system.

Believing all of the above, alongside condemning the October 7th attacks by Hamas as abhorrent whilst also understanding that as occupied people, they are desperate for the occupation to end - is not impossible or contradictory.

I would love, as a pacifist, to see Israel and Palestine thrive as coexistent neighbours, with all people of those lands having equal human rights. It seems impossible.

We must all educate ourselves from every angle to overcome our biases, our prejudices, our contempt of those we see as 'other' or less worthy or even less than human. If we stopped believing that our perceived enemy hates us and wants to kill us and started believing that they want us to be safe and happy and look out for us as neighbours, we might be able to make that shift to peace possible. It is a difficult journey to really examine your conscience and takes a huge amount of courage to question your beliefs.

Peace for all. Equal rights for all.