We will dance again

[namechange11112222]

I have just watched this documentary and it broke my heart.
Hamas are revolting monsters, I can't call them animals because animals wouldn't even do that.

I do wonder how the younger, very outspoken generation would:

1. Feel if that was a festival they went to and watched their friends get slaughtered
2. Have said if there were social media at the time of WW2

Would we have been viewed in the same way Israel has been? The causalities of war were far greater.

I do not support the way in which Benjamin Netanyahu is going about this war at all but I 100% agree with Israel's right to defend itself.

They seem to be the only war I can think of where a country being attacked from all sides, from countries who do want mass extermination of Jewish people (do the younger generation still get taught about the holocaust anymore) who are repeatedly being told to stand down by the west.

To remind the younger generation of previous war casualties (for anyone with the argument that this war is completely out of proportion):

WW1

• UK - 885,000 deaths
• Germany - over 2 million deaths

WW2 - is this proportionate?

• 1.5 - 3 million deaths in Germany
• 210,000 dead - Nuclear bombs into Japan

• 70,000 innocent dead - England

Iraq War

• 179 English soldiers
• 4,492 US soldiers
• 186 - 210,000 Iraqi civilians

No civilian should ever be harmed in war, it is evil however it is inevitable.
How many Jewish people should be killed for Israel to be supported in defending themselves.
So the "the death toll is completely out of proportion" argument doesn't stand.

Yes, we can go back to the time before the bible and argue who has the right to the land. But this current war was started by Hamas and Hezbollah the following day.

However, please don't try to say they want mass extermination of Jewish people just because of the land.
People spitting on a naked woman's dead body when brought back into Gaza, footage filmed by Hamas.

Lets call this what it is pure racism, just like the Nazi's, who killed 6 million Jewish people.

Then there was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was close friends with Hitler and holidayed in his personal residence in Berlin. That's before Israel was even formed.

Yes there's been violence between both sides but for hundreds of years Jews were the victims both of oppression and subjugation, and of violence.

it goes back further than decades. Arabs were massacring Jewish villages throughout the Ottoman Empire. Non-Muslims were prevented from bearing arms and couldn't even defend themselves
It goes back to whatever suit the narrative. Why can't people get that that's what the problem is?

You can argue for centuries who started it first and therefore who is the guilty party that should hold their hands up.

Or you can argue for as long as to who is in the most need of protecting their nations.

Or who has the most right to land ownership because they suffer the most.

Focusing on the above will take nobody anywhere and that's why the war goes on and on and why no organisation has found a mean for negotiation, let alone conflict resolution.

It will only end when the past is acknowledged but left behind and leaders are intelligent enough to understand this. Sadly, none has shown any side of it and their supporters continue to want to prove their entitlement.

...Nah. Seeing videos showing some Gazans doesn't represent a whole group. Or, as I said before, should I take the tiktok videos from quite a few Israelis laughing at and celebrating the destruction of Gaza and their lack of clean water to represent the whole of Israel?

Just an afterthought. That's not how syllogisms work.

I have genuinely not seen anyone not want Hamas removed though? Where have you seen that?

I'd like to know how anyone thinks Hamas is getting removed if there is a ceasefire, for instance.

Actually they weren't Israelis. They were all Jews who had lived for thousands of years alongside the Arab populations of Egypt, Syria, Iraq etc which, until the end of the First World War, was part of the Ottoman Empire.

Clearly not. However they (or their descendents) are Israelis now.

By all means clarify where I'm mistaken but that is what you laid out in your posts. You made a disgusting comment with the obvious implication that the children we are seeing blown apart, injured, mourning and going through what must be absolute hell aren't innocent and I note you don't even want to clarify that you didn't mean that. Disgusting.

I mean, you get kids and people harassing people everywhere. Not often do they have gund pointing at them within seconds. You travel around the world and people come to talk to you sometimes if they see you are being a tourist. I was approached by people all over wanting to practise their English or asked to buy souvenirs. Israel was the only time people with guns tried to move the kids away and it's hard to think they would do the same if the kids were Israeli.

My point was that it was not an isolated event if the soldiers reacted so quickly and to be honest somehow I didnt feel safe at all.

I think you misunderstood my point. I’m absolutely not saying that all Palestinians support Hamas - but just pointing out that Hamas certainly doesn’t support Palestinians… ( ie they knew their actions would cause harm for Palestinians and didn’t care)
Also - I think it’s completely unreasonable for anyone living in a place of safety to judge the Palestinians for not resisting Hamas. If I was Palestinian I would be far too scared to openly protest against them. My priority would be trying to ensure my family’s survival.

I know there were ordinary Palestinians cheering on October 7th but those kind of street riots bring out the worst kind of people. ( Think of the riots in Britain in the summer) Most normal people would have stayed firmly indoors with their families- probably very fearful about the repercussions.

Also - I think it’s completely unreasonable for anyone living in a place of safety to judge the Palestinians for not resisting Hamas. If I was Palestinian I would be far too scared to openly protest against them. My priority would be trying to ensure my family’s survival.

I get this. I sometimes get scared about being anonymously gender-critical on Facebook as some accounts have had the police at their door, so I can't even imagine the fear of an organisation like Hamas.

Do you mind clarifying your point? I've reread your comment and I can't see what point is unless it's to once again bring an association between Hamas and innocent Palestinians when people are discussing the innocence of Palestinian civilians and to somehow praise Israel for "looking after their own". I was responding to a commenter who said there are no innocent civilians except the men who spoke publicly. I haven't seen a single poster imply that Hamas support or are good for the Palestinian civilians so I just can't understand what value it adds to post calling them "Hamas's people" at a time when they're being brutally attacked and the world is turning a blind eye and the attitude that they're somehow aligned with Hamas is perpetuating people looking away.

I think there are Palestinians who don't support hamas, although children are brainwashed from an early age to hate the Jews. But it is unclear why some people seem to care more about Palestinians being killed than in other conflicts and indeed Christians being persecuted across the Muslim world (eg Nigeria).

Well done for showing other posters that you hold racist and demonising views regarding an indigenous population 👍

Haha pathetic post didn't answer what I said at all just ignorant insults.

Because this is a board and a thread about this particular conflict hence why posters are discussing that. I'd have thought that was obvious...
Some of us think all killing of civilians is wrong hence not trying to justify Israel murdering civilians or deflecting the discussion to other conflicts.

It is integral to why alot of people are so upset about the marches as there have been so many conflicts where alot more people have died (Syria,Iraq etc) but we didn't have regular protests which makes people suspicious that these people only care when Jewish people are the perpetrators.

But what does that actually mean - no one can attend a protest unless they attend them all?

And when you say they only care if Jewish people are the perpetrators - firstly the marches are against the actions of the Israeli government and military not Jewish people.

(For the sake of addressing your comment I'm gonna ignore the facts of the people who protested against the actions in Syria and Iraq as you did) Even if someone attending one of those protests was only aware of what's happening in Palestine another country - what difference does that make? What actual difference to the immorality of Israel's actions does it make whether another countries immorality is also being protested? I'm trying to understand the intent of what you're saying other than to deflect from raising awareness about the plight of the Palestinian people. Maybe you can clarify if you had another intention.

But I didn’t call them “Hamas’s people “ . You’re twisting my words and my meaning.
I said Hamas doesn’t look after their own people…meaning the people they govern. ( Hamas ARE the government and have a duty to the people they are supposed to serve )

@Msfrustrated
In my subsequent post I said “ - I think it’s completely unreasonable for anyone living in a place of safety to judge the Palestinians for not resisting Hamas. If I was Palestinian I would be far too scared to openly protest against them. My priority would be trying to ensure my family’s survival.”
So I’m not at all sure what your point is ..

I accept that pro Palestinian posters on here say they absolutely don’t support Hamas but it is disappointing that pro Palestine marchers wouldn’t openly condemn Hamas on any of the marches. The only person who did condemn Hamas was Iranian and he was abused by marchers . I would never judge a Palestinian in fear for their life but I do think the protesters in this country are free to openly condemn Hamas and should have done so on the weekly marches - not just on mumsnet. We all agree they’ve been terrible for Gaza ( apart from the horror of October 7th)

They're a terror group though - I don't expect much of them at all especially not to act like a "government". I think that commenting where PP were accusing Palestinians civilians to be guilty to say how much you prefer the IDF to a terrorist group is a bizarre choice especially when they are a military of what's supposed to be a civilised government and are setting people on fire. I don't know how it's been over a year and the bar is still on the floor. Why are you expecting anything of terrorists? Why are you expecting so little from Israel and the IDF?

Oh for goodness sake - this has been done to death. They are there to protest the bombardment of the Palestinian people with bombs our government are supplying. I don't recall our government arming Hamas so I don't see why at this point after everything we have seen over the last year this lazy "condemn Hamas" is still being trotted out, they could do it at every match and it wouldn't actually make a difference.

But again you’re making assumptions…. Why do you think I expect so little from the IDF?

@Limesodaagain it seems you consider yourself to be fair on both sides.
Do you also question those who support Israel If they condemn the aggressive attacks carried out by the IDF?
Do you question them if they condemn the IDF for the cold blooded murder of Hind Rajab?
Do you question them if they condemn the extermination of Gaza's health care system by the IDF?
Do you question them if they condemn the IDF for burning alive people in tents? The list of crimes by the IDF is too long for me to list but I'm sure you are well aware of them.
so do you? Or do you only expect one side to constantly condemn?