We will dance again

[namechange11112222]

I have just watched this documentary and it broke my heart.
Hamas are revolting monsters, I can't call them animals because animals wouldn't even do that.

I do wonder how the younger, very outspoken generation would:

1. Feel if that was a festival they went to and watched their friends get slaughtered
2. Have said if there were social media at the time of WW2

Would we have been viewed in the same way Israel has been? The causalities of war were far greater.

I do not support the way in which Benjamin Netanyahu is going about this war at all but I 100% agree with Israel's right to defend itself.

They seem to be the only war I can think of where a country being attacked from all sides, from countries who do want mass extermination of Jewish people (do the younger generation still get taught about the holocaust anymore) who are repeatedly being told to stand down by the west.

To remind the younger generation of previous war casualties (for anyone with the argument that this war is completely out of proportion):

WW1

• UK - 885,000 deaths
• Germany - over 2 million deaths

WW2 - is this proportionate?

• 1.5 - 3 million deaths in Germany
• 210,000 dead - Nuclear bombs into Japan

• 70,000 innocent dead - England

Iraq War

• 179 English soldiers
• 4,492 US soldiers
• 186 - 210,000 Iraqi civilians

No civilian should ever be harmed in war, it is evil however it is inevitable.
How many Jewish people should be killed for Israel to be supported in defending themselves.
So the "the death toll is completely out of proportion" argument doesn't stand.

Yes, we can go back to the time before the bible and argue who has the right to the land. But this current war was started by Hamas and Hezbollah the following day.

However, please don't try to say they want mass extermination of Jewish people just because of the land.
People spitting on a naked woman's dead body when brought back into Gaza, footage filmed by Hamas.

Lets call this what it is pure racism, just like the Nazi's, who killed 6 million Jewish people.

What Hamas did was appalling and unforgivable.

so is the relentless indiscriminate killing of civilians including thousands of children.

Palestine now has the highest ratio of child amputees in the world.

I support the right for Israel to exist.

I support the right to practice your religion peacefully.

I condemn the way Jewish people have been treated throughout history.

I also condemn the actions Benjamin Netanyahu is choosing right now.

I am from a family who were deeply affected by the troubles in NI. I see what people are pushed to do when they feel they need to defend themselves. Unfortunately I think Israel and Palestine both fall into this group of people who have been relentlessly trying to defend their right to exist and pushed to atrocity.

@Msfrustrated thank you for that as it truly was a vile thing to say. Some people have really lost their humanity.

To some extent I agree with you - and I was using hyperbole - which shows how horrific Hamas are. To stand against them is to die, often unpleasantly. I doubt I would speak against them were I in Gaza - I want to stay alive. But those who supported Hamas are guilty, and to them also is the blame for innocent deaths. I hope they rot in Gehenna, quite frankly.

Well lots of people would say the same is true for those supporting IDF and would commend the bravery of those who refuse to serve in it. Most sane people obviously condemn Hamas but at a certain point you have to accept that the responsibility for deaths from bombs dropped on civilians is the side that dropped the bomb. The responsibility of a child or journalist shot is the person who fired the gun. You can't blame Hamas for people killed by the IDF by using the old "they made me do it" excuse.

Absolutely and some funny bits pointing out the absurdity amongst the seriousness of it all.

If I don't like the IDF and publicly say I will not join it or support it, I will not be shot or thrown off a roof for objecting. The families of hostages (and others) in Israel are not shot or beaten up - they are free to demand their government does what they want and to oppose and speak against Netanyahu (who is culpable, too btw). Try that in Gaza against Hamas. Hamas (and Hezbollah and the terrorist state of Iran, which backs Hezbollah and also kills women for wearing their head scarf the wrong way) attacked and murdered innocent people with no warning. Any state is under an obligation to reply to this and if the perpetrators are the terrorist government of another state, the citizens of which in the main cheered on the acts, then the reply is going to be bloody.
I am bitter at the deaths in Gaza - and I know who to blame for them.

So this is your logic:
-people in Gaza are in danger from both Hamas and the IDF
-No one can escape Gaza or escape Hamas because Israel has them trapped
-Anyone on Gaza who don't publicly rise up and oppose Hamas aren't innocent 🤨

Make it make sense.

People in Gaza are not trapped there because of Israel, but because Egypt closed the Rafah crossing - the problems Palestinians have caused in e.g. Jordan, and the way that Hezbollah has destroyed Lebanon, make other states reluctant to take in refugees from Gaza.

Those people are stuck. Many of them support Hamas and Hezbollah; if they did not it would be much harder for Hamas and Hezbollah to hide within those communities. People don't hide terrorists they disagree with.

Israel withdrew from Gaza twenty years ago. Gaza gets its electricity and water from Israel. Gazans did not have to vote in Hamas as their government, they chose to. I said if I were in Gaza I would not speak against Hamas because I want to stay alive.

I suspect those who truly hate Hamas have quietly left over the last decades to make a life elsewhere.
NB bear in mind that apparently Palestinians working in Israel provided the intelligence that allowed Hamas to attack so successfully on 7th Oct. I am not sure what to say about that. Hamas rules by fear so refusing to pass on information probably meant harm to families (as it did in Ireland during the Troubles if one disavowed the (P)IRA in any way - terrorist organisations tend to operate in the same way).

Of course, I am horrified by the deaths in Gaza. But I also saw footage on 'We will dance again', that reminded me forcibly of shoot-em up games. What did Hamas or Gaza expect in return? This is Israel they attacked - a state known for thousands of years to retaliate against enemies with great force. Hamas did not give a shit for Gazans when they attacked on 7th Oct - some government.

But did it make sense to rehome and resettle Palestininans to make room for so many people and lose their own? Why did someone else have to lose their homeland?
It's a tragedy on both sides. One side removed to make room for another, neither guilty of anything but wanting to live their lives. Neither asking for what was to come.

The displacement of Palestinina people created a lot of trauma that didn't just desappear because treaties were ratified and because of some other people needed a home too.

Egypt closed the border because Israel displaced millions of people and Egypt can't take them.

Don't deflect this blame on to Egypt!

Are you suggesting that Israel tried to ethnic cleanse Palestine by forcing them into Egypt? Because that is the only way you could blame Egypt in this scenario... by not accepting the refugees created by Israel.

What a load of nonsense. Israel has seized control of the Gazan side of the Rafah Crossing. Egypt and surrounding countries know that Israel is trying to displace people and will not let them return to their homes. Israel cut off electricity and water to Gaza - don't try to act like Israel are being charitable by "providing" these to Gaza - they have maintained control of their resources for the very reason of being able to cut it off and effectively control whether there is civilisation in Gaza or not. Your entire comment is diminishing the blockade of Gaza and how Israel has kept people trapped in hell there - poor children growing up in effectively a prison.

Maybe you should look at the videos of Israeli soldiers social media of you want to talk about who is playing "shoot em up" games. They're openly laughing and mocking about shooting Palestinian civilians like it's a video game. Maybe look at the training camps they allow civilians and celebrities to attend and play at shooting like it's a game.

You keep reiterating about Hamas as though I'm suggesting they are good. Of course Hamas are shit but Israel also doesn't give a shit about Palestinians not does it give a shit about their own hostages else it would be trying to rescue them, wouldn't shoot and kill those that escape and wave white flags and would be listening to their families begging them to stop using them as pawns. The difference between you and I is that I don't expect terrorists to care or protect people's live but I do expect that of a government and a country who should be held accountable to international law like all others. Why are you reducing everything to help behaviour for terrorists as though them not giving a shit about Palestinians means Israel shouldn't give a shit? 🤨 Still waiting for you to clarify your genocidal comment that the only innocent Palestinians are the men who condemned Hamas btw!

Excellent post @Grammarnut

Well they are quite clearly just brushing over what people would be trying to escape via the crossing which is the Israeli bombs raining down on them in an area they were told to if they wished to be safe. Egypt was in a position of being complicit in the Israeli displacement and also risking Egyptians near the border encouraging people there to bomb it. Poster is also trying to blame Egypt despite Egypt continually encouraging and mediating talks to get it reopened for the sake of the Palestinians..it can't be ignorance at this point - it's total delusion and clinging to Israeli propaganda with no critical thinking.

They were offered settlement in Jordan in the partition in 1947/8. The Arab states that begun the war against the fledgling Jewish state told indigenous people to leave and they would be able to return after the war. But the Arab armies were defeated and people were unable to return to their homes.

Msfrustrated Israel cannot just rescue its hostages. The most recent time they tried to achieve this the six hostages were brutally murdered shortly before they could be rescued from an underground tunnel. It is said that Sinwar surrounds himself with hostages knowing that if Israel attempts to kill him, hostages will be killed too.

I am not suggesting they can simply 'just' rescue them, what I'm saying is their current actions are nothing at all to do with rescuing the hostages or keeping them safe. They could definitely undertake more tactical operations if the hostages were their concern instead of carpet bombing whole areas where they could be and plunging where they are into famine and disease and shooting their own hostages in their underwear while they're waving white flags.....🤨 Therefore I maintain my comment which is that they don't give a shit about the hostages as we haven't seen any attempt to secure them yet.

I really wish you could let the IDF know how to 'undertake more tactical operations'! You have no idea what measures the IDF takes because it is not published. Why would they let Hamas know what they are doing???

Where did I suggest they need to publish them?

We are all seeing every day the operations undertaken by the IDF - mass bombing and breaking down all health infrastructure in Gaza while they plunge it into disease and famine. If they're doing anything else they aren't having any success at it are they? Unless you have anything to actually counter that they are doing everything to rescue the hostages (an opinion NOT held by their families) I fail to see what your point is except to try and scold me for stating the obvious that it's been over a year and they have made no progress at securing any hostages through military force except where they've engaged with negotiations.

Some people left, but some were forcibly removed from their homes to make space for new Israeli settlements. Not all Palestininans left their homes willingly with some promise on the horizon, many didnt.

Indeed, those who stayed became Israeli citizens with equal rights with Jews and other faiths. At present they account for almost 2 million of the population (about 21%).

I agree with you @namechange11112222

No I am not saying Israel tried to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Nor am I unaware that refugees fled towards the Rafah crossing. But Egypt did not just close the border, there is a wall there to prevent unauthorised immigration. And I am not shifting the blame to Egypt. I am putting it fair and square where it belongs (for this war) and thats with the evil, vicious, murderous orgaisation called Hamas.

Breaking down the lies of ethnic cleansing and the 'nakba'

Read “THE LIES OF PALESTINE” (below), by Jay Gadi…a MOST excellent piece.

• Arabs were in the land first: Their 1,500-year-old mosque is built on top of the 3,000-year-old Jewish temple, which is proof that Israel was there long before Arabs. The Israelites are mentioned 43 times in the Quran and the Hadith, but there is no mention of Palestine, not even once. The Qur'an specifies that the “Land of Israel is the homeland of the Jewish people, that God Himself gave that land to them as heritage and ordered them to live therein.”

• All the land belongs to the Palestinians: Israel became a state in May of 1948. There exists an international doctrine called “Uti Possidetis Juris.” This doctrine provides that emerging states presumptively inherit their pre-independence administrative boundaries. Applied to the case of Israel, “uti possidetis juris” would dictate that Israel inherit the boundaries of the British Mandate of Palestine as they existed in May 1948. In the 1967 conflict, Israel absorbed additional territory from Egypt and Syria.

• Israel expelled thousands of Arabs: In May of 1948, Israel sent a letter to the Arabs living in the newly formed Israeli territory inviting them to stay and participate, with equal rights, in the future of the country. The Arabs of six countries refused to accept Israel as a nation and planned to destroy it and all of its population. They advised Arabs in the area to leave so as not to be caught up in the fighting. Hundreds of thousands of Arabs left their homes, voluntarily, on the advice of the attacking nations. Arabs that attacked Jews within Israel were expelled.

• Israel carried out ethnic cleansing in the Nakba: On the eve of May 14, 1948, the Arabs launched an air attack on Tel Aviv, which the Israelis resisted. This action was followed by the invasion of the former Palestinian Mandate (Israel) by Arab armies from Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Egypt. After 10 months, Israel won the war in which many Arabs were killed and many others became refugees. Arabs called this the Nakba (catastrophe), blaming Israel for the death and displacement of the Arabs when, in fact, they were just defending their newly formed country. The original reason for the term Nakba, was the embarrassing loss of all those Arab countries against tiny Israel. They adjusted the term to make themselves the victims.

• Israel has been attacking Arabs for 76 years: Every conflict Israel has had with the Arabs has been started by Arab aggression including the Nakba, when six Arab countries tried to wipe out Israel. The only time Israel ever fired first was at the beginning of the Six-Day War, in anticipation of the attack being planned by Gaza, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. Israel’s preemptive strike is why this conflict lasted only six days.

• Children in Gaza are starving: Israel has allowed more than 40,000 trucks carrying more than 500,000 pounds of food, water, medical supplies and other aid into Gaza. No other country does that for their enemy. (As of July 31, 2024)

• Israel is committing genocide: Hamas and hundreds of supporters, including nine UNRWA members, invaded Israel on Oct. 7th and INTENTIONALLY killed over 1,200 innocent civilians. When it is done intentionally, it is GENOCIDE. Israel has no intention of, or benefit from, the targeting innocent civilians.

• Israel targets women and children: Israel is the only military in the world that drops leaflets, sends text messages, uses “knock bombs,” announces their plan to attack by drones so that civilians can escape. The civilians who try to leave are often shot by Hamas and are included in their count of dead or injured civilians.

• Israel is holding Palestinian hostages: They are not hostages; they are prisoners being held in Israeli jails. They have committed crimes, from throwing rocks at the IDF to killing Israelis. They are not innocent civilians, like the Israelis taken on Oct. 7th.

• Gaza just wants peace: Arabs in Gaza get monthly cash rewards from the Palestinian Authority (PA) if they are injured, captured or killed while carrying out attacks on Jews. Hamas and their hundreds of supporters, including the nine UNRWA workers who carried out the attack in Israel on Oct. 7, are getting monthly rewards for their terror attack. The budget for these rewards is $300 million dollars a year. The Arabs are rewarded for genocide.

• Gaza is an open-air prison: In 2005, Israel removed every Jew, dead and alive, from Gaza hoping to bring peace to the area. The Arabs burned everything left behind by the Jews. Shortly after, rockets, suicide bombers, Molotov cocktails, explosives and knife attacks came from Gaza, so Israel was obliged to implement import controls to reduce rocket attacks and border checkpoints to prevent the other types of attacks on Israel. The Arabs turned their freedom into an “open-air prison.” They are posting pictures now of Gaza before and after Oct. 7 and it looked pretty good before.

One thing I find really frightening: Hamas is classed as a terrorist organisation and you know how terrorists recruit? They use the actions taken against them.

They will take everything that’s happened, the thousands of women and children killed. The enormous number of people whose lives have been changed by violence, amputation, death, displacement.. they will say “look how they showed us no kindness. Look how they are different from us”

and it’s true. Future generations see that and think “yeah that’s right” and they will be drawn into it. It will be reinforced and the issue made bigger.

It will never stop unless every last Palestinian on earth is murdered. Both options are horrific.

People who lost jobs because they spoke Arabic at work would beg to differ.
I visited Israel once many years ago. We were sitting on a bench when some Palestinian boys came up to us to chat. Within seconds we were surrounded by Israeli soldeirs with guns asking them to move away. Not sure that looked like equality either.