We will dance again

[namechange11112222]

I have just watched this documentary and it broke my heart.
Hamas are revolting monsters, I can't call them animals because animals wouldn't even do that.

I do wonder how the younger, very outspoken generation would:

1. Feel if that was a festival they went to and watched their friends get slaughtered
2. Have said if there were social media at the time of WW2

Would we have been viewed in the same way Israel has been? The causalities of war were far greater.

I do not support the way in which Benjamin Netanyahu is going about this war at all but I 100% agree with Israel's right to defend itself.

They seem to be the only war I can think of where a country being attacked from all sides, from countries who do want mass extermination of Jewish people (do the younger generation still get taught about the holocaust anymore) who are repeatedly being told to stand down by the west.

To remind the younger generation of previous war casualties (for anyone with the argument that this war is completely out of proportion):

WW1

• UK - 885,000 deaths
• Germany - over 2 million deaths

WW2 - is this proportionate?

• 1.5 - 3 million deaths in Germany
• 210,000 dead - Nuclear bombs into Japan

• 70,000 innocent dead - England

Iraq War

• 179 English soldiers
• 4,492 US soldiers
• 186 - 210,000 Iraqi civilians

No civilian should ever be harmed in war, it is evil however it is inevitable.
How many Jewish people should be killed for Israel to be supported in defending themselves.
So the "the death toll is completely out of proportion" argument doesn't stand.

Yes, we can go back to the time before the bible and argue who has the right to the land. But this current war was started by Hamas and Hezbollah the following day.

However, please don't try to say they want mass extermination of Jewish people just because of the land.
People spitting on a naked woman's dead body when brought back into Gaza, footage filmed by Hamas.

Lets call this what it is pure racism, just like the Nazi's, who killed 6 million Jewish people.

The Israeli's had the world's sympathy on 7th October but they have squandered it since. The Gazans might have been persuaded to give up the terrorists responsible for the massacre but that won't be the case for generations now...

Well, they have form for arson on second homes back in the 70s and 80s

Well if you're posing such a hypothetical question why don't you tell us in your scenario? Quite why your posing that all the Welsh citizens would want the English dead I don't know, unless you want to just come out and say that you consider all people in Gaza as wanting Israel "wiped out and killed" 🤨Would it be appropriate to displace 1.2 million people in Wales? What would be the acceptable civilian collateral damage for Welsh citizens? Would be appropriate to cut off supply of food and water to Welsh civilians? Would it be appropriate for A English politicians to say there is no such thing as an innocent Welsh person? Would it be appropriate for English soldiers to mock the displaced Welsh people as they post social media videos slut shaming the Welsh women's and their lingerie left behind where they've fled their homes?

Well it's not based on nothing, it's based on the opinion of medical experts looking at not just bombings as cause of death but expected deaths from the general health conditions everyone is being put under through famine and inadequate access to healthcare.

It is Israel continually refusing access for independent assessment of the conditions and the death toll. Why is that? Surely if it's guaranteed to be lower than suggested why would they not want that verified asap?

The Hamas claims are based on this? Can you show us the evidence of that? I don't just mean them saying it, I mean actual proof. The working out.

Independent assessment of the death toll seems vanishingly unlikely at present. Do you think Hamas would leave any independent assessors to do their work in peace, and to publish any results that might be inconvenient? The Israelis couldn't make them even if they wanted to.

No I was clearly referencing the PP point that the death toll is expected to be higher, which is the opinion of medical experts however it needs real independent verification which is only being declined by Israel. I haven't seen any evidence Hamas is declining entry to independent assessors (not that they would have a choice as is is Israel who controls who goes in and out of Gaza). Israel have been consistently declining to allow this so it doesn't really matter what hypothetically Hamas would or wouldn't allow. In your opinion why are Israel declining independent journalists and investigators to assess the death toll?

It does need real independent verification, yes. Glad we're clear on that. In the absence of such, she's merely guessing, and none of the medical experts have the access needed to give an accurate figure. You seem to think that pointing out that Israel are preventing this access somehow makes the claims that have been made about civilian deaths more reliable. It does not. There are no reliable figures.

Hamas are not the ones currently declining entry, but that's not what was asked. You answer my question before posing any to me. Do you think Hamas would leave any independent assessors to do their work in peace, and to publish any results that might be inconvenient?

Please answer the question instead of deflecting hypothetical actions of Hamas. Why aren't Israel allowing them in to do their work?
It's perfectly possible regardless of the figures provided by Hamas for experts to advise a rough indirect death toll based on the conditions in Gaza, the lack of healthcare infrastructure, famine etc. These experts are expecting the death toll be higher than even claimed by Hamas. If you are certain it is less than even claimed, can you tell us what you expect it to be and what evidence that's based on? Considering the bombings plus the indirect risk to life through lack of food and healthcare, what do you think is a reasonable figure so far?

Oh but it wasn't a single doctor or journalist at that time. There were many of them. They attended every massacre and were reporting clearly the atrocities. There were many images and videos coming out at that time. It wasn't any kind of leap to suggest that the figures were a conservative estimate.

If Israel are the good guys, surely it is in their own best interests to keep the observers safe. Because there will definitely be a day in court at some point.

I just can't imagine the English people accepting a Welsh massacre in their name...

Please answer the question that was posed to you first instead of trying to deflect. You need to do that before you get to ask others.

Not sure why you've decided I'm certain the toll is less than claimed. Nothing I have written says or even implies that. The fact is that there are no reliable figures at all, hence I make no estimate.

Which still doesn't mean they'd be capable of accurately appraising not only each casualty but the civilian or combatant status of every single one of them. And you can't possibly think every single incident was recorded, much less that a photo or video would provide all the evidence needed in every single case? It's completely implausible. Which has nothing to do with who anyone thinks the 'good guys' are or whatever tactical advice you might have for any of the parties concerned.

It's a ridiculous question with no logical basis though as the facts stand that the people denying access to independent verification has been Israel not Hamas therefore based on the facts it's more likely that the people who wouldn't let these assessors do their work is the IDF, not Hamas. Just as aid workers and healthcare workers are being disrupted, injured and killed by Israel not Hamas.So it really doesn't matter whether I think Hamas would let them assess the death toll or not. If I say yes or no, it doesn't matter. Let's say I say yes I assume they will now answer why Israel are denying the access?

You are saying we cannot trust the figures hence you are denying they are as high as they are. Therefore based on the level of destruction, bombardment and famine for a year now you don't get to tell others that they are wrong to point out the information we have while you provide no counter claim or estimate.

What's the actual point or value of what you're commenting? What are you trying to say? That there is no possible way to ascertain a death toll after a conflict? Don't be ridiculous.

Sorry I’m confused.
Gaza is also bordered by Egypt, if they so desired to have an independent assessment then they could access Gaza from that boarder, could they not?

Not while the Israeli military presence is controlling the crossing and the corridor they can't. Hence why I said Israel are controlling who enters Gaza.

It's also Israel disputing the death toll, disputing the risk to life, disputing the deaths of civilians and accusing people of inflating it hence why I'm asking why they aren't letting independent journalists in to verify the claims of Hamas and their own claims.

And how long would Israel let them do their job? The question wasn't 'how do we get journalists into gaza?' It's 'how do we stop Israel from killing them so they can do their job?'

Just so I am understanding correctly.

Do you mean with the footage posted by hamas and the cheering from Hamas over the attack, you don’t believe it happened? Interesting view.

Hamas are using their people as cannon fodder, they couldn’t care less about the Palestinians.
Just between 2014-2020 they have been given 4.5 billion in aid for the people in Gaza. What have hamas done with it? Spent it on weapons and building tunnels. They have spent none on “their” people to make their lives better.

They are monsters, and to think people in this country support them makes me sick.

They had sympathy for a day. 1 day! Can you picture if it was the same for 911? Or London terrorist attacks?
Hezbollah started firing rockets in to Israel the following day and the majority of the western world were telling Israel not to go to war over it.

This interview was amazing.
He articulates it so perfectly.

The only innocent Palestinians in Gaza are the brave men (mostly men) who condemned Hamas for killing the people of Gaza. I hope they managed to escape Hamas for saying that truth - they risked their lives to say it.
Every death in this war is the result of the actions of Hamas on 7th Oct (remember they filmed themselves gang-raping women and little girls, filmed mutilating women's vulvas, filmed themselves killing babies, shooting children, killing fathers in front of their children, filmed themselves throwing grenades into shelters full of young people etc). Hezbollah is also culpable. Every single death in this war is the fault of Hamas.

“The only innocent Palestinians in Gaza are the brave men (mostly men) who condemned Hamas for killing the people of Gaza.”

No … The only guilty Palestinians are those who took part in wrong doing or those who encouraged wrong doing.

I can’t judge them for not standing up to Hamas because I know if I was in their shoes I would probably be too afraid of the consequences.

The Gazans might have been persuaded to give up the terrorists responsible for the massacre but that won't be the case for generations now...

That was never happening. Not a chance. Those terrorists ran Gaza. They were elected in fact. They killed any dissenters. Still do.

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/oct/09/one-day-in-october-review-hamas-terror-attack-survivors-channel-4

I see the Guardian has outdone itself. How dare the filmmakers have made the terrorists look bad, and the victims sympathetic, by using Hamas' own gopro footage?!

I'm not convinced Stuart Jeffries realises he watched a documentary.

@Grammarnut
The only innocent Palestinians in Gaza are the brave men (mostly men) who condemned Hamas for killing the people of Gaza. I hope they managed to escape Hamas for saying that truth - they risked their lives to say it.

I'm sorry - are you saying children aren't innocent? Babies who have been buried under the rubble aren't innocent? Children carrying their siblings body parts in a rucksack when they've been blown apart aren't innocent? What a vile and ignorant comment to make.