We will dance again

[namechange11112222]

I have just watched this documentary and it broke my heart.
Hamas are revolting monsters, I can't call them animals because animals wouldn't even do that.

I do wonder how the younger, very outspoken generation would:

1. Feel if that was a festival they went to and watched their friends get slaughtered
2. Have said if there were social media at the time of WW2

Would we have been viewed in the same way Israel has been? The causalities of war were far greater.

I do not support the way in which Benjamin Netanyahu is going about this war at all but I 100% agree with Israel's right to defend itself.

They seem to be the only war I can think of where a country being attacked from all sides, from countries who do want mass extermination of Jewish people (do the younger generation still get taught about the holocaust anymore) who are repeatedly being told to stand down by the west.

To remind the younger generation of previous war casualties (for anyone with the argument that this war is completely out of proportion):

WW1

• UK - 885,000 deaths
• Germany - over 2 million deaths

WW2 - is this proportionate?

• 1.5 - 3 million deaths in Germany
• 210,000 dead - Nuclear bombs into Japan

• 70,000 innocent dead - England

Iraq War

• 179 English soldiers
• 4,492 US soldiers
• 186 - 210,000 Iraqi civilians

No civilian should ever be harmed in war, it is evil however it is inevitable.
How many Jewish people should be killed for Israel to be supported in defending themselves.
So the "the death toll is completely out of proportion" argument doesn't stand.

Yes, we can go back to the time before the bible and argue who has the right to the land. But this current war was started by Hamas and Hezbollah the following day.

However, please don't try to say they want mass extermination of Jewish people just because of the land.
People spitting on a naked woman's dead body when brought back into Gaza, footage filmed by Hamas.

Lets call this what it is pure racism, just like the Nazi's, who killed 6 million Jewish people.

Not what I said

The western doctor's are Hamas now? Not even the IDF are claiming that...
Again, your rush to be certain speaks volumes about your world view
Considering your rush to first dismiss the number of children dead as a made up lie, to then saying they may be being shot by Hamas and that the Doctors treating them are also Hamas I think you could do with a mirror.

1. the figures are from Hamas and Hamas lies

The explosion that killed and injured many civilians at al-Ahli Arab Hospital in Gaza on October 17, 2023, resulted from an apparent rocket-propelled munition, such as those commonly used by Palestinian armed groups, that hit the hospital grounds, Human Rights Watch said today. While misfires are frequent, further investigation is needed to determine who launched the apparent rocket and whether the laws of war were violated.

The Human Rights Watch review of videos and photos suggests that on October 17 a rocket struck the al-Ahli hospital grounds,” said Ida Sawyer, crisis and conflict director at Human Rights Watch. “The victims and families of those killed or injured while seeking safety at the hospital deserve a full investigation to determine what happened and who was responsible.”

The Ministry of Health in Gaza said Israel was responsible for the explosion. The Israeli military said the explosion resulted from an Islamic Jihad rocket that misfired"

2. yes, it is conceivable that the children are shot by Hamas

3. Yes, it is possible the the doctors either are Hamas or are afraid of Hamas.

Politics and history aside...
It wasnt something I had planned to watch, Im glad I did.
Because regardless of what you think of Israel and its politics, the loss of civilian human life is always tragic. No one deserves it, on either side of this conflict. The young people at that festival didnt deserve it.

The documentary is really well made. Seeing it all through the clips shot on mobile phones and with the added footage from CCTV piecing it alltogether was frightening and very powerful.

I dont know if any inquest was finally published by the army took so long to respond?
Also, was it ever known, seeing how the rave was announced very last minute on social media, if the terrorists somehow knew of it in advance and planned the attack, or was it just something that happened and they used an opportunity?

@RedHotWings I also saw quite a lot of reports/footage of what was allegedly Hamas snipers shooting at fleeing civilians in Gaza, and this was prior to Israeli ground troops entering.
It seems they wanted them to remain and be "martyred".
Also what was most likely an IED that took out a number of vehicles heading south.

Dispute the numbers of children killed, if you want. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Hamas had deliberately killed Palestinian children. I'm sure this isn't the vast majority though, they will have been killed by Israel. But to imply or link people who don't dispute the numbers of dead children with antisemitism, painting Jews as baby killers is really not on.

Anyway, this thread was about the film about the Nova festival. I know everything is all wound up together in a hideous tangled knot. I heard a British woman on the radio today whose daughter had been kidnapped by Hamas and is still held. If she's even still alive, I dread to think the tortures she's enduring.

We might disagree about dead children in Gaza or Israeli actions, or a million other things. I don't think I have ever read any posters saying that the hostages shouldn't be freed. I think if people with different views on this whole awful war can agree on even one thing, that's something positive.

I said that Jews as baby killers is an age old trope and people should be cautious about applying it to the Jewish state. Cautious doesn't mean banned, and I think it is entirely appropriate.

It's never antisemitic to state a fact. If the state of Israel is killing children, it is not antisemitic to say so. They have been killing children in Gaza, and that is not in question by anybody... other than you apparently. So you can throw the word around all you want, but you're wrong and you're doing a disservice to those trying to show real antisemitism.

What facts do you have about the deaths in Gaza?

As reported in this morning's Guardian:
Hezbollah, the Iran-backed Lebanese militant group, have vowed to keep up the fight against Israeli “aggression” and called Israel a “cancerous gland that must be eliminated, no matter how long it takes”.
So for those people who praise Hezbollah by marching in London on Saturday give your heads a wobble. Pure antisemitism.

I dont know if any inquest was finally published by the army took so long to respond?
Also, was it ever known, seeing how the rave was announced very last minute on social media, if the terrorists somehow knew of it in advance and planned the attack, or was it just something that happened and they used an opportunity?

There has been no definitive inquest or enquiry yet - Israel is at war and until it is over there won't be one. The terrorists apparently didn't know about the rave but since it was s close to the border it quickly became apparent that there was an 'opportunity' as you put it, to attack these young people.

The IDF have an awful track record of abusing people, and much of it has been caught on camera.

A friend's parents, in Lebanon, have just been told to evacuate as Israeli forces will be targeting the area. He is beside himself, offered to book and pay for flights to get them out, but they have no passports and are very elderly, so have said they will just have to take their chances. 😞

@Aix They really do.

I'm so sorry to hear that, it must be so terrifying for them. I hope they can find somewhere safe to stay

I know it wasn't me you asked, but this article cites many reliable sources and Oxfam aren't biased, they take a neutral stance calling for an end to deaths of Palestinian and Israeli civilians.

https://www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/more-women-and-children-killed-gaza-israeli-military-any-other-recent-conflict

I can't imagine what it must be like, it is a constant worry for him too. He is Lebanese but I doubt he will be able to go there for some time, now. I don't know if they have anything like bomb shelters there, I really hope they do.

Hi, good evening, this uses the same contested sources as the other Oxfam press release discussed earlier in the thread. There are no reliable figures about Gaza because all come from Hamas who have every incentive to lie and have been shown to do so.

Yep. It most certainly does not cite a reliable source on the number of Gaza deaths, because there isn't one.

Perhaps there aren't any 100% accurate figures, but the closest we will get for no2. Due to the amount of civilian infrastructure hit and the state of Gaza, it must be a staggering amount.

Both Hamas and the IDF have been caught out telling huge whoppers, it is hard to find reliable information as neither can be trusted. It would be needed by an independent organisation but that is probably unfeasible at the moment.

The IDF aren't giving a figure of the number of Palestinian civilians killed, are they?

Because Hamas are completely full of shit, it's important not to place reliance on any analysis or estimate that uses their figures. Quite why Oxfam thought it was appropriate to do so is a mystery. I understand why ordinary people watching the news or reading an article might not realise that the numbers ultimately come from Hamas, but Oxfam will know. And they'll also be aware that ordinary Palestinians and aid workers can't speak freely in Gaza either, look at what they did to poor Islam Hejazy. If I worked for the Gaza Ministry of Health I expect I'd do what Hamas told me.

According to IDF data, some 17,000 Hamas operatives and members of other terror groups have been killed by the IDF in the Gaza Strip since the beginning of the war. Hamas claim that there have been approximately 41,000 casualties in Gaza over this period but doesn't distinguish between between civilian and Hamas members.

Hamas claim that there have been approximately 41,000 casualties in Gaza over this period but doesn't distinguish between between civilian and Hamas members.

It basically doesn't admit to any deaths being anything other than civilian.

I feel like posters are being very disingenious but not acknowledging why Israel is currently going into Lebanon. Like a year's worth of rocket attacks just doesn't exist.

I suppose it's more difficult to be certain about what's going on in Gaza and who is responsible for every single child killed.Less phone footage given that even before 7/10 they didn't have the infrastructure to the same degree we have, or Israel has, and since it's now been bombed to hell, I would imagine they have very little access to the Internet now. No one to document what's happening there with any reliability.

Both or all sides in this are behaving abominably and have done for decades. It's not anti semitic to say that. It's not anti Palestinian either. We get tied down in this rhetoric and debate and meanwhile 11000 kids are dead.

Specifically re the nova music festival-it was awful. One of the worst atrocities of all time. I've watched the documentary and I sobbed. Unimaginable horror. I have DD's 17 and 18 and I don't know that I'd be able to carry on if I was the parents of those girls that were violated and killed. Not sure I'd have the strength to live with it.

However there is a nagging question in my mind about the wisdom ( Or the appropriate nature maybe? ) Of holding a festival half a mile from the Gaza Strip where people have been contained and attacked consistently for decades. Kids the same age as those dancing at the festival trapped behind the wall for the their whole lives, listening to people having a party on the other side. Nothing justifies it, it goes without saying. But were I a Gazan teenager how would I have felt? Is it this stuff, as well as the other conditions Gazans have lived under, that leads to generations of people continuing in the hatred of one another that results in the situation we are now witnessing?

I think alot about the people killed and being killed in this conflict. I wish there was some way it could stop but I don't see how it ever will at this point.

I was with you right up until you mentioned the location of the Nova festival. Pure victim blaming.
You may or not he aware that the kibbutzim close to the border with.Gaza were inhabited by Israelis who had good relationships with their Palestinian neighbours and many of those butchered on 7 October by Hamas and Gazans were proponents of peace.