We will dance again

[namechange11112222]

I have just watched this documentary and it broke my heart.
Hamas are revolting monsters, I can't call them animals because animals wouldn't even do that.

I do wonder how the younger, very outspoken generation would:

1. Feel if that was a festival they went to and watched their friends get slaughtered
2. Have said if there were social media at the time of WW2

Would we have been viewed in the same way Israel has been? The causalities of war were far greater.

I do not support the way in which Benjamin Netanyahu is going about this war at all but I 100% agree with Israel's right to defend itself.

They seem to be the only war I can think of where a country being attacked from all sides, from countries who do want mass extermination of Jewish people (do the younger generation still get taught about the holocaust anymore) who are repeatedly being told to stand down by the west.

To remind the younger generation of previous war casualties (for anyone with the argument that this war is completely out of proportion):

WW1

• UK - 885,000 deaths
• Germany - over 2 million deaths

WW2 - is this proportionate?

• 1.5 - 3 million deaths in Germany
• 210,000 dead - Nuclear bombs into Japan

• 70,000 innocent dead - England

Iraq War

• 179 English soldiers
• 4,492 US soldiers
• 186 - 210,000 Iraqi civilians

No civilian should ever be harmed in war, it is evil however it is inevitable.
How many Jewish people should be killed for Israel to be supported in defending themselves.
So the "the death toll is completely out of proportion" argument doesn't stand.

Yes, we can go back to the time before the bible and argue who has the right to the land. But this current war was started by Hamas and Hezbollah the following day.

However, please don't try to say they want mass extermination of Jewish people just because of the land.
People spitting on a naked woman's dead body when brought back into Gaza, footage filmed by Hamas.

Lets call this what it is pure racism, just like the Nazi's, who killed 6 million Jewish people.

Perhaps you could tell us the good faith version of military trained snipers hitting children in the head of several occasions now. Is it a mistake? Did they think the children were Hamas? What's the good faith version...?

Hind Rajab - I don't know whether the IDF was responsible but it appears plausible. If they were responsible, I would hope that the killing happened due to intelligence breakdown rather than intentionally. You and I both don't know. But even if it was intentional than my position would be that the responsible individuals should face charges but not that a single incident is representative of the entire IDF. All armies have individuals in them that do terrible things. But your rush to assume that IDF personnel were responsible, did it intentionally and that this is representative of the entire army demonstrates your bias.

Provide specific incidents, noting that I will not accept that events happened just because Hamas or Al Jazeera said so. Then we can discuss, if you would like to do so

Perhaps you could tell us the good faith version of military trained snipers hitting children in the head of several occasions now. Is it a mistake? Did they think the children were Hamas? What's the good faith version...?

This is what I mean by the automatic assumption of worst possible faith. No acknowledgement that it might have been an accident or a breakdown in communication.
This doesn't make the death any less tragic obviously.

@RedHotWings maybe you should take a read of this article to remind yourself.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/aug/18/hind-rajab-israeli-state-atrocity

Not sure what you want to remind myself of? That the army didn't give permission for the ambulances? Presumably you think that is because the IDF wanted that child to die a terrible death but actually there are many many potential reasons. The complete failure of October 7th demonstrates that he IDF can suffer terrible information and communication breakdowns. Or are you making a different point, I've got no idea.

@RedHotWings you keep telling yourself that to justify it if it makes you sleep well at night. But we all know there have been thousands and thousands of children killed by Israeli forces in this conflict and more so than any other.

You don't actually know that, but it is clear that you really really want to believe it.

@RedHotWings

www.oxfam.org/en/press-releases/more-women-and-children-killed-gaza-israeli-military-any-other-recent-conflict

The Oxfam analysis was based on the Lancet’s letter “Counting the Dead in Gaza: Difficult but Essential. That is where Oxfam took the Gaza statistics from. However, the Lancet letter itself has dubious validity, e.g:

aoav.org.uk/2024/a-critical-analysis-of-the-lancets-letter-counting-the-dead-in-gaza-difficult-but-essential-professor-mike-spagat-reviews-the-claim-the-total-gaza-death-toll-may-reach-upwards-of-186000/

@RedHotWings

dppa.un.org/en/gaza-number-of-children-killed-higher-four-years-of-world-conflict

People will really twist themselves in all ways rather than admit that the IDF are brutally massacring children. They are sick

Accidents and break down on communications don't happen again and again and again though. It's the same with the aid workers - how many times does one of the most skilled militaries in the world make these mistakes? You would have to have no knowledge of the skill of a sniper if you really believe they can repeatedly hit children by mistake.

OP I would never in a million years try and justify that attack on October 7

i would think badly of anyone who did.

it was a horrific massacre.

i also do not think Israel should be wiping out entire communities in Gaza

it’s possible for me to hold two thoughts in my head at once.

Based entirely and directly on Hamas figures.

No, it is sick how quick people are to conclude that the IDF is brutally murdering children as it speaks to their worldview and prejudices

I asked earlier for examples and nothing has been provided. Just because Hamas or Al Jazeera says something doesn't mean it is true. And I am sure that in urban warfare where one side is intentionally integrated into civilian facilities, against international law, such communication breakdowns are not uncommon, unfortunately.

I already asked you specifically about the reports from Doctors treating children with sniper wounds. Not Al Jazeera, or Hamas. Are they lying to spread an antisemitic trope? Are they saying this because they're unknowingly antisemitic? Or you could talk about any of the figures provided by human rights organisations or the UN. Are they also making up the accounts? There's also many documented cases of snipers targeting children in the West Bank. I'm not sure why you feel that you're going to find a single specific example where it's defensible for a military sniper to shoot a child in the head of chest or anywhere really.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/02/gaza-palestinian-children-killed-idf-israel-war

Have you not seen the protests happening against them around the world? Have you not seen the French PM urging an arms embargo against Israel? Is he also an anti-semite? People are seeing the IDF for who they are and some people are not happy about it.

Hamas also has snipers. And the doctors quoted in the article either say that they don't know who shot the civilians or, at best, there is circumstantial evidence that it is the IDF. The IDF rejects the claim. So basically, we don't know and it comes down to what we want to believe.

Macron appears angry that the IDF went into Lebanon rather than trust his assurances about Hezbollah, and wants to curry influence with Lebanon, as a previous colony. He may also be aware of domestic politics.

Wow what a way to read things exactly how they weren't written because it challenged your world view. It said some doctors didn't know the circumstances of the shootings not that they suspected either side. Other Doctors said accounts, locations etc led them to believe they were killed by the IDF. It then goes on to say that that in some cases they have the proof they were shot by Israeli ammunition and all you got from that was that maybe Hamas snipers killed them? Despite the long history of IDF snipers targeting children that's all you have to conclude?

The doctors are not neutral, they live under the thumb of Hamas and can often be Hamas. So I don't automatically accept what they say and what they say is often circumstantial. I concluded not that the IDF definitely wasn't responsible for any of the shootings but that we just don't know. Again, your rush to be certain speaks volumes about your world view

Exactly. And I won't waste another minute arguing with them because it's pointless.