We will dance again

[namechange11112222]

I have just watched this documentary and it broke my heart.
Hamas are revolting monsters, I can't call them animals because animals wouldn't even do that.

I do wonder how the younger, very outspoken generation would:

1. Feel if that was a festival they went to and watched their friends get slaughtered
2. Have said if there were social media at the time of WW2

Would we have been viewed in the same way Israel has been? The causalities of war were far greater.

I do not support the way in which Benjamin Netanyahu is going about this war at all but I 100% agree with Israel's right to defend itself.

They seem to be the only war I can think of where a country being attacked from all sides, from countries who do want mass extermination of Jewish people (do the younger generation still get taught about the holocaust anymore) who are repeatedly being told to stand down by the west.

To remind the younger generation of previous war casualties (for anyone with the argument that this war is completely out of proportion):

WW1

• UK - 885,000 deaths
• Germany - over 2 million deaths

WW2 - is this proportionate?

• 1.5 - 3 million deaths in Germany
• 210,000 dead - Nuclear bombs into Japan

• 70,000 innocent dead - England

Iraq War

• 179 English soldiers
• 4,492 US soldiers
• 186 - 210,000 Iraqi civilians

No civilian should ever be harmed in war, it is evil however it is inevitable.
How many Jewish people should be killed for Israel to be supported in defending themselves.
So the "the death toll is completely out of proportion" argument doesn't stand.

Yes, we can go back to the time before the bible and argue who has the right to the land. But this current war was started by Hamas and Hezbollah the following day.

However, please don't try to say they want mass extermination of Jewish people just because of the land.
People spitting on a naked woman's dead body when brought back into Gaza, footage filmed by Hamas.

Lets call this what it is pure racism, just like the Nazi's, who killed 6 million Jewish people.

I actually used to be hugely critical of Israel, I genuinely believed that they exaggerated the threat they were under in order to justify their actions and expand West Bank settlements.

My mind changed in one instant when I opened twitter on 7 October last year and saw the footage of Shani Louk's body on the back of a pickup truck like a hunting trophy. At that point I realised the existential threat Israel faced, and I've supported them ever since.

Is it not possible to be very sympathetic to the horror Israel faced on Oct 7th, to consider Hamas terrorists, to be supportive of Jewish people, but to think the Israeli government is going too far/taking the wrong approach in an effort to defend itself? How can the deaths of thousands of children be justified?
Do people assume you're antisemitic if you say this is wrong too?

No, not at all.

ETA that was in answer to your last question.

to think the Israeli government is going too far/taking the wrong approach in an effort to defend itself? How can the deaths of thousands of children be justified?

I can give my perspective on this. The deaths are horrific and tragic but I believe that Hamas must shoulder the lion's share of the blame, both due to provoking the war through their actions on 7 October, and by deliberately embedding themselves in civilian infrastructure. In fact they seek as many civilian deaths as possible as these are their most valuable propaganda tool.

I can absolutely understand why Israel can no longer entertain having Hamas as a neighbour.

So would you consider someone saying they didn't completely agree with your analysis to be antisemitic - ie saying they hold Hamas responsible, but don't believe the Israeli government can absolve themselves of the responsibility for children's deaths when they're the ones ordering the attacks?

Look, I don't have any solutions but it seems sometimes if you don't show unwavering support of the Israeli government you are called an antisemite.

Look, I don't have any solutions but it seems sometimes if you don't show unwavering support of the Israeli government you are called an antisemite

No you're not. I really wish people would stop saying this.

So would you consider someone saying they didn't completely agree with your analysis to be antisemitic - ie saying they hold Hamas responsible, but don't believe the Israeli government can absolve themselves of the responsibility for children's deaths when they're the ones ordering the attacks?

No I definitely wouldn't think anyone was antisemitic for holding that viewpoint.

What you tend to find when people are told their comments are anti semetic (talking in general here, not about any specific posters) is that yes, they'll have criticised the Israeli government, but then they'll have said something else such as describing them as Nazis, referencing the holocaust in a particular way, implying that Jews control the media etc etc...then when they are called out, they complain that all they did was criticise the Israeli government and you can't say anything without being accused of anti semetism.

Okay, thank you.
All that is good to hear.

But that's bullshit though

Because that's what happens it's how it works it's how Israel is getting away with murder

I agree @namechange11112222 and I don't know how Isreal can now agree a 2 state solution when Hamas have infiltrated aid workers and also set up ammunition stores in kindergartens and hospitals. Until Hamas are no more Israel and her citizens will never be safe.

Atleast more European leaders are speaking up about time hey, French PM Macron has urged for weapons to be halted to Israel that they are using to kill Palestinians. I wonder which other countries will listen?

Hamas were worse than animals, the killing of civilians in Gaza is terrible but, Hamas very deliberately hide their weapons, bases and personnel beneath or amongst the civilian population, how can you eradicate something like that when they have no regard for the safety of their own population , if they were soldiers rather than terrorist cowards they would fight and have bases away from civilians

l would also want people to be aware that Jews as child killers is an age old anti semitic trope, and therefore be cautious about emphasising child deaths in the current conflict. It is clear that children have died and that is awful. But the numbers are highly contested given that they originate from Hamas who has every reason to lie and has been found to lie in this conflict. Therefore, in this context, I am concerned that posts emphasising the number of child deaths are knowingly or unknowingly tapping into antisemitic ideas baked into Western thinking over thousands of years.

Are you actually disputing the numbers of dead children? What a disgusting thing to say.

If anything the numbers are probably too low.

So now you can't even point out that Israel have killed many children in this conflict? I see!

Fine to say that children have died in this war and I never said otherwise. But yes, I am saying that the Hamas figures about deaths are biased and unreliable so people should not revel in them to beat Israel with. And I am also saying that civilian deaths in war is not necessarily illegal, even if always awful.

It is widely accepted that the actual figure is probably much higher than the figures reported.

Of course you can mention many children have died. It is difficult to ascertain exact figures in a war zone, and both Hamas and the IDF have been caught out spreading lies and misinformation. Finding a reliable, non-biased source can be difficult.
Hamas and the Israeli government have blood on their hands, both have committed atrocities and both need to be severely punished through the international courts - not through continued bloodshed where both of them are largely shielded from the fighting, leaving civilians to be targeted.

What a ridiculous and distasteful comment. To imply that people are engaging in antisemitic tropes by talking about the very real and brutal murders of children is absurd and quite frankly heartless. The figures are anticipated to be higher than what we are being told. It is not only Hamas giving this info. Do you think the Doctors reporting treating children who have been shot by snipers are making it up because they're antisemitic? Their accounts of operating on children without anaesthesia because they've been maimed by the IDF are absolutely horrific.

Children are not being murdered but are causalities of a war started by their leaders. The doctors are operating in a tyrannical state so have to adhere to the Hamas position whether it is true or not and whether they are Hamas or not. I am not saying that children are not dying, I am saying that there are many useful idiots in the west regurgitating Hamas propaganda.

@RedHotWings Little Hind Rajab was killed by Israeli forces along with her friend. She wasn't a casualty. She was murdered.

What a ridiculous and distasteful comment. To imply that people are engaging in antisemitic tropes by talking about the very real and brutal murders of children is absurd and quite frankly heartless

I don't think it's ridiculous and distasteful. When I've had a look at the CITME section of the board, there is the utmost consistency in believing the worst-faith possible version of Israel's actions.

Casualties implies being killed when you're.not the intended target. Sniping children in the head is murder and I'd say that regardless of which ethnicity the child was - it's called having a moral compass. I find your POV very sad. There's a lot of regurgitating of propaganda from both sides - and you're a great example of the Israeli propaganda that their expert snipers are hitting small children on accident.