We will dance again

[namechange11112222]

I have just watched this documentary and it broke my heart.
Hamas are revolting monsters, I can't call them animals because animals wouldn't even do that.

I do wonder how the younger, very outspoken generation would:

1. Feel if that was a festival they went to and watched their friends get slaughtered
2. Have said if there were social media at the time of WW2

Would we have been viewed in the same way Israel has been? The causalities of war were far greater.

I do not support the way in which Benjamin Netanyahu is going about this war at all but I 100% agree with Israel's right to defend itself.

They seem to be the only war I can think of where a country being attacked from all sides, from countries who do want mass extermination of Jewish people (do the younger generation still get taught about the holocaust anymore) who are repeatedly being told to stand down by the west.

To remind the younger generation of previous war casualties (for anyone with the argument that this war is completely out of proportion):

WW1

• UK - 885,000 deaths
• Germany - over 2 million deaths

WW2 - is this proportionate?

• 1.5 - 3 million deaths in Germany
• 210,000 dead - Nuclear bombs into Japan

• 70,000 innocent dead - England

Iraq War

• 179 English soldiers
• 4,492 US soldiers
• 186 - 210,000 Iraqi civilians

No civilian should ever be harmed in war, it is evil however it is inevitable.
How many Jewish people should be killed for Israel to be supported in defending themselves.
So the "the death toll is completely out of proportion" argument doesn't stand.

Yes, we can go back to the time before the bible and argue who has the right to the land. But this current war was started by Hamas and Hezbollah the following day.

However, please don't try to say they want mass extermination of Jewish people just because of the land.
People spitting on a naked woman's dead body when brought back into Gaza, footage filmed by Hamas.

Lets call this what it is pure racism, just like the Nazi's, who killed 6 million Jewish people.

It's twitter what do you expect. I'm personally not on it so can't read the comments, wouldn't want to, but I'm sure they're not all Irish commenters. I will repeat it is not accurate to suggest the views of this event are mainstream. The majority of Irish have zero tolerance for nationalist terrorist movements

I'm glad that you agree at least on one point. Tbh it's hard to find an irish person who does. With regards to anti semitism being ingrained in irish society, I can't agree with you that it isnt. I grew up there, as did you, and I always had a certain idea about israel being the bad guy. And that came along with anti semitic tropes that we are seeing come up again. I never really thought about it until circumstances lead me to know a lot of Jewish people. I'll be honest, I still thought that something like the holocaust couldnt happen again and that the vigilance and fear they had was misplaced. And then October 7 happened and I realised that they are right to be worried, even more so after what happened afterwards and is still happening.

And why do you keep on bringing it up, in a weird obsessive way, instead of addressing other issues (such as using history as an excuse for cmmiting current crimes) ? You need to move on.

I can say truly, hand on heart, that I never thought of Israel as the bad guy growing up.

I think a lack of support for the Israeli government's actions (for humanitarian reasons) has been painted as antisemitism by many, and we have got a bad rep now.

Obviously there's a minority of lunatics, like those responsible for the stuff on Twitter, but the vast majority of Irish people don't think like them. October 7th was terrifying and I do understand why the Irraeli government responded as they did, but there are too many innocent people caught up in this to support what's happening. I don't have the answers, but this way can't be right.

I haven't actually commented much on the actual conflict....so stop trying to drag me into a discussion.

What I did do was pull you up on your comment which has been deleted where you mentioned the nazis. Comparing the current Israeli government to the Nazis is considered to be anti semetic. That was my issue.

Then this morning you said

It's not antisemitic to point out that a government/army is unlawfully treating/killing people and act against international law

No one said it was.

It was you comparison to the Nazis that was the issue.

Shall I say it again because you seem to either be deliberately obtuse or really quite dense.

The comparison to the Nazis.

I have no idea what is so difficult about this concept.

What's the alternative though?
Continued forever war?
Greater Israel with West Bank and Gaza Palestinians given citizenship rights? Or kept as prisoners?
Complete ethnic cleansing of Palestinians (again, forever war)?
Surrender and dissolution of the state of Israel and ethnic cleansing of Jews?
I was day dreaming today. In a different, better world, there would be no fence between Israel and an independent free state of Palestine, just a line on the road like between EU states. Jews would continue to live in the West Bank and commute to work in Israel. They'd just be living in Palestine and be cross border commuters. And at the Nova festival, hundreds of young Palestinians would cross the border to party with the young Israelis and other nationalities.
This is a really simple dream sadly made impossible by bloodthirsty hatred that runs so deep, on both sides.

@Kendodd sadly I don’t see there ever being peace there, not in my lifetime anyway.

Sometimes I wonder if establishing the Jewish state of Israel back in the 40s was such a good idea. Regardless of ‘whose’ land it was and who was entitled to it, the priority for the Jewish people was peace after the atrocities of the holocaust. If it was me, I would have set up a Jewish state somewhere else, it wouldn’t have had the history etc but peace is way more important.

Yes not my experience either. I grew up in Dublin close to the synagogue with Jewish next door neighbour's and many Jewish friends who never expressed it to me either.

I think people need to be careful not to demonise an entire nation of people when highlighting antisemitism, not sure it serves anyone well.

As for move on..... don't comment nonsense to and about me and not expect me to respond.

I have never once said that criticising the Israeli government is anti semetic. This is a old argument that many of us are very tired of.

Well I'm from tallaght so maybe that's the difference lol. But seriously, I'm not demonizing the country. What did you think of the recent Michael d Higgins debacle? That was embarrassing and shows that he absolutely has a bias.

Comparing Israel to the Nazis is considered to be anti semetic. This is not just by me but by many many organisations. Like I said have a look at gov dot UK and the definition of anti semetism

That's it for me, in the meantime I recommend camomile tea for you

Honestly you are coming across as incredibly unpleasant

“can't even talk to my irish family and friends about this topic because I know what their stance would probably be. They dont understand because they dont know any jews and only see it through the lens of the irish situation, even though it's really nothing like it.”
This is very true - many see it through a simple black and white lens of Ireland’s struggle against a colonial oppressor and cannot see that this conflict is not the same.

I hope you're right that the vast majority don't think like this. DD went to Trinity Dublin to study for 4 years. Her best friend there, a highly intelligent and now well known writer, expressed her views and their friendship was destroyed. I suspect many younger (under age 40) Irish people feel the same as DD's ex friend.

in the meantime I recommend camomile tea for you.
How patronising can you be!

I know right...also the implication that I need to calm down.

Tried to match your energy.
Sadly this just leads to derailing of the discussion, so I'll stick to my word this time, over and out.

Does it feel a bit unfair when your entire nation is demonised due to the hateful actions and sentiments of some people within it?

Of course that's not your experience as you're not Jewish and it's highly unlikely that your Jewish friends and neighbours would discuss with a non-Jew any antisemitism they experienced in a country with such deeply ingrained antisemitism where they're a tiny, precarious minority.

Yes - I can’t imagine any Jewish people would want to discuss anti semitism with anyone who’s likely to give them a lecture about the terrible things happening in Gaza. Because that’s what happens on mumsnet ..

Where exactly would you have set up a Jewish state? Do you not think that Jewish people having a homeland in their actual homeland makes a lot more sense?

If you prefer the left wing point of view here's an excerpt from an evenhanded feature by Jonathan Freedland in the Guardian -
Inside Israel, the last two weeks are understood as the country at last hitting back against the proxies of the regime that constitutes the true danger to the Middle East – namely, Iran and its theocratic rulers. For years, Iran has encircled Israel with a “ring of fire” that includes the three Hs: Hamas, the Houthis in Yemen and, most well-armed of the three, Hezbollah, wielding an enormous arsenal and the power of a state within a state. These actors and Iran are not, incidentally, simply in the business of ending the injustice of Israel’s post-1967 occupation: their stated goal is to end Israel itself.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/04/israel-israelis-gaza-war-7-october-anniversary

Yes of course it does, I’m just pie in the sky thinking. I’m just saying that setting up a peaceful homeland post WW2 in already troubled part of the world was bound to fail.

But borders were redrawn, new homelands/countries created and millions upon millions of people were resettled in troubled parts of the world post WW2.