We will dance again

[namechange11112222]

I have just watched this documentary and it broke my heart.
Hamas are revolting monsters, I can't call them animals because animals wouldn't even do that.

I do wonder how the younger, very outspoken generation would:

1. Feel if that was a festival they went to and watched their friends get slaughtered
2. Have said if there were social media at the time of WW2

Would we have been viewed in the same way Israel has been? The causalities of war were far greater.

I do not support the way in which Benjamin Netanyahu is going about this war at all but I 100% agree with Israel's right to defend itself.

They seem to be the only war I can think of where a country being attacked from all sides, from countries who do want mass extermination of Jewish people (do the younger generation still get taught about the holocaust anymore) who are repeatedly being told to stand down by the west.

To remind the younger generation of previous war casualties (for anyone with the argument that this war is completely out of proportion):

WW1

• UK - 885,000 deaths
• Germany - over 2 million deaths

WW2 - is this proportionate?

• 1.5 - 3 million deaths in Germany
• 210,000 dead - Nuclear bombs into Japan

• 70,000 innocent dead - England

Iraq War

• 179 English soldiers
• 4,492 US soldiers
• 186 - 210,000 Iraqi civilians

No civilian should ever be harmed in war, it is evil however it is inevitable.
How many Jewish people should be killed for Israel to be supported in defending themselves.
So the "the death toll is completely out of proportion" argument doesn't stand.

Yes, we can go back to the time before the bible and argue who has the right to the land. But this current war was started by Hamas and Hezbollah the following day.

However, please don't try to say they want mass extermination of Jewish people just because of the land.
People spitting on a naked woman's dead body when brought back into Gaza, footage filmed by Hamas.

Lets call this what it is pure racism, just like the Nazi's, who killed 6 million Jewish people.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?
I am not suggesting this, I am asking if the two state solution was something the Israeli government actually offered/discussed and Palestinian government subsequently rejected.
Or is it a hypothetical solution that public opinion would favour in some poll or another but is not likely for the Israeli government to propose this. In which case Palestinian government rejected an idea that didnt have any weight to it to begin with.

That's a lie. Please share evidence that shows most Israelis want a two state solution? It's a small minority on the left who do.

The current administration opposes the idea because it sees a sovereign Palestine as yet another existential threat to Israel, which is understandable isn’t it?

What's the alternative?

It’s complicated isn’t it. If anyone had the answer we wouldn’t be in this fucking mess.

But then here we are... I have not seen any statistics supporting most Israeli citizens are in favour of two state solutions, but even if they did, and the government is against that, that does not leave much hope for the Palestinians.
And the current situation is an existential and urgent threat to them.

Israel has offered the Palestinians multiple 2 state solutions over the years....they have all been rejected.

So you have gone from saying MOST Israelis want a two state solution to admitting that actually, no they don't but now you think that's understandable

If Germany had taken most of England during WW2 and then offered a two state solution where Germany kept fuck loads of land, would the UK have accepted it?

What were the conditions on offer?

The current administration is used here to refer to the government, it does not mean most citizens.

Sorry I don’t understand what this means.

It is not true that most citizens do. It really isn't.

Most people can see the two state solution is dead.

That leaves either the total annihilation of Israel.

Or a one state solution of Jews and Palestinians living together under some kind of international protectorate. But that isn’t something either side would ever agree to.

Or, the religious right in Israel would like a one state solution, with Gaza and the West Bank becoming part of Israel, and the Palestinians sent back to Egypt and other Arab countries where they have roots. That case is argued for here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=uU1-FuBW7Ho

I don’t think Netanyahu himself has ever argued for this position. But politicians have who he’s formed alliances with, notably Bezalel Smotrich.

I'm not sure what you mean by this? Where would be the similarity?

It's not for Israel to decide as Palestine is a separate state. Perhaps they should go back to the agreed borders and end the occupation.

You don't just get to decide unilaterally where a nation live and drive them out of their home.

Yes the Israeli government has openly discussed plans to drive the Palestinians to Egypt. They've also been open about wanting to raze Gaza and destroy the Palestinians.

It was the Camp David Summit of 2000, brokered by Bill Clinton, where Yasser Arafat rejected a deal.

Israel offered approximately 92% of the West Bank, and full control of Gaza, along with a proposal for a divided Jerusalem.

But Arafat wanted full sovereignty of East Jerusalem. He also wanted a “right of return” for millions of Palestinians to be able to move to Israel and reclaim land used in 1948 for the state’s creation. This would have seen the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state and could never have been accepted.

When it comes to peace talks, the Palestinians were described as never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity. That was the best deal they’d ever been offered.

There’s more detail here - from an Israeli source:

honestreporting.com/in-depth-arafat-rejected-peace-in-2000/

But Arafat wanted full sovereignty of East Jerusalem

Can you really not see why?

@Littleonesick please can YOU share evidence that most Israelis don’t want a 2 state solution?

I've just watched this film. Awful. One of the things that stood out from the hamas footage for me is that they weren't doing it for Palestine, never once did they say that. They were doing it for their god. They wanted to be martyrs. All they cared about was killing jews ('dogs' as they called them). They are terrorists, akin to isis, not "freedom fighters".

She’s right - support for tbe two state solution declined in popularity for years and was crushed on October 7th. Here’s an American analysis:

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/without-enforcement-talk-two-states-hollow

I see there are marches planned on October 7 all across the US, and probably the UK too - to commiserate with Palestine , not Israel. Absolutely disgusting. No shame. Maybe on that one day let people remember the dead and the people taken hostage, some of whom are still taken? Its like marching in solidarity with al qaeda/bin laden on 9/11. although at this point anything is possible so that could well happen. Have you thought about making 7/7 a day for hamas too? That could work

Surely they're not that crass

So awful, I’m yet to watch

Yes, they are. Just one example, which coincidentally ends up where a memorial for the victims of October 7th is being held. The use of the word 'flood' is interesting. And thats not even the college campuses, of which many are apparently doing the same thing. Outright terrorist supporters. Its indefensible.