AIBU to consider regular payments from DP (my kids dad) as child maintenance - even though we're still together?

[mummatoots]

DP and I are still together, but keep separate finances. (He is a financial mess.)

The house we live in is owned (and mortgaged) solely by me.

We have two young children together.

He pays me £500 per month - and with this I pay for everything related to housing, and also clothes, classes, haircuts, etc - anything else the kids need.

He tends to do supermarket shopping as well as this.

Would you class this as effectively child maintenance, albeit in an informal arrangement?

Or, in your view, can you only receive child maintenance if separated?

I ask because I'm looking at moving house, and if I do class this as informal child maintenance (easily evidenced with a few months payments on bank statements,) it is counted within affordability calculations, so helps my application. It's a real payment which I receive regularly from my kids dad towards their living costs, so I'm not making anything up and I think it should count - but I'm not sure if I'm correct in classing it as such, and suddenly have doubts re: mortgage fraud etc!

I've checked the CMS calculator, and if we were to separate and I were to have the kids full time, with his salary I'd be due £532 per month.

Interested in the mumsnet verdict.

It's more complicated than that, if he gives you money then potentially he will have property rights so mortgage companies always want to know all over 18's living at the address - we had to list adult children

The thing with mn is sometimes they root out the problem you don't see.

You're thinking this is normal behavior, you're like the frog in in the saucepan.

If you just met, would you put up with this behavior? No you wouldn't so why do it now?

I just know that my daughter is buying her first home and both the lender and solicitor have asked the question.

He gives OP money to cover his expenses for living there.There is something called ‘beneficial interest’ which would give him a claim on the property. But to have any legal grounding on which to base this he would have to prove any money paid has gone directly towards contributing to a deposit for the property, paying the mortgage, or a contribution towards renovations or improvements. They’re not married and without a written agreement that he and OP intended to own the property jointly regardless of the property deeds or mortgage, he has no claim.

There is no legal obligation for you to inform your mortgage lender if your partner moves in with you - you only need to do so if you take on a tenant or lodger with a formal tenancy agreement, irrespective of whether you're still living there or not.

@ArrowOfAthena

Because I have two very young children who dote on their father. It's not as simple as a collective shriek of LTB, which is why that wasn't intended to be the focus of this thread.

It's possible to be stupid and reckless with money / get into a mess with debt without being a terrible person through and through. Life is not black and white.

Sadly if he's not pulling his weight, then he's a terrible father

What I don't understand is why he is not paying his fair share of costs for the household and children. With £2.5k/month income he could easily increase his contribution. He might need to reduce his debt repayments, that's all. But why should you effectively pay off his debts for him? That's what you're doing by accepting such a low contribution.

@AnotherEmma His minimum payments at the moment are about £1500 per month. These can't be reduced without another creditors arrangement.

@ArrowOfAthena I'll disagree. He's been a twat, and I'm not saying I can forgive him for the deceit. But he's paying everything he has left really now towards the kids, and he works constantly to try to maximise this. Being a good father isn't just about money - again, life isn't binary, it's not black and white.

So he earns £40k and lives for free?!?

The £500 + food top-ups (though if he's doing the entire household grocery shop that would add up a bit) are paying towards the up-keep of his kids but he doesn't pay a penny towards his own living costs???
Men have got things sewn up!

He's paying off debt at £1500 a month.
And also paying for gifts etc for a child from a previous relationship.

Were you pre-empting a split here @mummatoots?

Your first line in this thread says you're still together but the sub-text is you might not be further down the line.

Are you actually saying that you are likely to split up? He would have to pay CM of around £500 a month, so you may as well 'count it' now with your mortgage application? Is this you looking ahead to what you're planning to do?

Interestingly, you're very defensive when posters suggest you dump him and sometimes things really are black and white. Long term serious debt and deceit are deal breakers for many people.

I'm sorry you're going through this but you do need to ask if you're setting a very low bar. As a home owner and a single parent, paying your way, you're clearly capable.

I work in mortgages.
We ask you to declare any other adults living in the property and if we can see that the "maintenance" is coming from your partner and you live together then no we wouldn't count it as maintenance.
If you don't declare he lives there but he's listed on the voters roll with you at the address we'd ask who he is and you'd have to lie that he doesn't live there
But some lenders might accept it. You need a good broker

If you were to split, OP, how would he be able to cover his own living expenses as well as paying the child maintenance and covering his debts. I get that you would be entitled to that amount through CMS, but if there is no spare money now, could you actually be sure of getting it? There are plenty of single parents who sadly don't get the CMS that they are entitled to.

There is a reason why the bank stress tests what you can afford to borrow. Personally, I would go with what you can afford under your own steam and buy a smaller house. Might not be ideal but it will give you more freedom in the long term to make whatever decisions you need to make about your relationship without worrying about the financial side of things.

OP has said all along that she can pay for the mortgage without this extra £500.

Which makes the whole question a bit bizarre.

It does look as if she's jumping the gun and hoping for CM further down the line so wants to include it now.

You have to declare he lives there because the mortgage do needs to know whether there’s anyone who might have a claim on the house.

They won’t count it as CM but if you’re not sure about this, just explain the situation and ask.

If you think you might be asking him to leave soon, it might be sensible to do that first.

I’m not sure if this has cropped up but there is an annual £7.5k tax free allowance for renting out furnished space in your home for a lodger. If you decide to keep him and he moves with you I’d absolutely get him to sign a lodger agreement that way if debt collectors come calling you can prove that he is a lodger you own house/ furniture/ car etc.

A few thoughts from me. First, no I don’t think you can call this child maintenance, it’s clear what they mean when banks and the like ask about CM, they mean by a separated partner. It sounds rather like your looking at a pigeon (of your own making) and trying to call it a swan. I do worry that to do so could be counted as mortgage fraud. You could always call and ask a broker for their advice (quick and free).

Second, I understand the financial arrangement you have and respect it if you are both happy with it. As long as you are aware that if you split he could come for a share of the house (he could argue he’s contributed to running costs and renovations and therefore added to the value and helped you facilitate mortgage payments, by not having to spend your own money on those costs). Where I do find things odd is that you’ve been on the CMS website and calculated what you’re entitled to as a separated person with his earnings. If I were together with someone and considered ourselves life partners I don’t think it wouldn’t cross my mind to go and do that. Again, you’ve got a bit of a pigeon here that you’re trying to look at as a swan. It’s fine if the pigeon works for you but it’s not what the bank means and I think you may run into trouble if you tell the bank one thing and they find out another.

Wouldn’t they deduct it straight from wages if he didn’t pay? Unless he lost job or left work. It does surprise me when people get into these situations. I wouldn’t say I am good with money and earn less than 40k but my bills are paid. I have a car loan (low interest) a small mortgage, pay off cc monthly. I don’t buy stuff or do things that I can’t afford.

Buy now, pay later feels like such a scam.

Honestly, I don't know how the deductions would work or what would take priority, debt repayments or CMS. I presume that they would have to leave him with a minimal amount to live on either way.

My point is that lots of people should get CMS and don't, for whatever reason. I don't think it's sensible to rely on it.

@GrumpyOldGran I'm not pre-empting a split. But if his credit rating were perfect right now, I wouldn't be rushing into a joint mortgage either. We are not in a good place, and I'm painfully aware of the seriousness of the fact he's run debt up in secret.

I have two very young kids. I don't want to only see them 50/50. I don't want to worry about how he's going to house or heat or clothe or feed them on his time with them. I don't necessarily want to blow our lives apart.

I do love my partner, much as I am floored with all this. He does housework, he cooks, he puts the kids to bed, etc. He works a lot.

I can't trust him financially right now. I'm not sure if I ever will again - so I'm not sure if we can work that out, or if it's not possible. I don't know if I'll be able to forgive this.

However, in there here and now, I need to move house. Our plan was to do so now, for schooling, which is why all of this has come out - he had been putting it off until the last possible moment obviously avoiding coming clean.

I can afford the mortgage payments without his contribution - I'm not stupid enough to want to take on a mortgage I couldn't handle myself, in these circumstances.

But as a single applicant, without this income, the total borrowing available to me is significantly less. So for example, if the £500 per month is included in the calculations, my mortgage payment is £1200 per month and total borrowing £250k. If it's not included, payments are £1000 per month and total borrowing maxed at £200k. I can afford the higher monthly payments, but don't have access to the higher overall borrowing. That's why I was asking the question, as to whether it'd be possible / awful to include it. The difference is huge in terms of housing availability in the desired area.

We could very feasibly split up, I move, and then get back together. (To be clear, I wouldn't do this specifically to get round a mortgage application!! Just musing on the situation.)

If I could class it as a lodger / renting and declare it as such I'd do that, but wouldn't have the spare bedroom to allocate him, which I think is required. And also haven't declared it as taxable income, and also I think it would push over the threshold for repaying Child Benefit, so lots of other consequences potentially.

The consensus on here is that it isn't right to include it as CM, so that's fine. That's why I was asking.

Thanks for clarifying with your update.

It's a very hard situation for you.

My view is that he has to show a great desire to change for good. Just like someone who is an alcoholic or drug user. Ideally he should he having therapy to get to the root of his spending habits.

It doesn't show much control in that he showers his son with designer clothes etc while he's still so much in debt. Obviously it's clear why he does this as a absent dad.

The question I'd ask - and others have- it would seem he can't support himself outside of this relationship with you.
If £1500 a month is paying off debt, that doesn't leave much for a rental on his own plus CM to you (and presumably he also pays CM for his son from his other relationship.)

I hope you find a solution that works for you.

@mummatoots I have read this thread with great interest. I would just like to say that you appear to have your head very well screwed on, and your children are lucky to have you. As you say, life is never black and white, and you seem to be thinking carefully about how to choose between two not very easy options. You're clearly prioritising your children in all this, which is great to see. I really hope it works out well for you and you get the mortgage you need.

No it's not child maintenance, it's his contribution to your shared costs.
You don't get child maintenance if you live together or have 50/50 custody.