To Think This is Too Low a Sentance - 12 year olds knife killing

[LuckysDadsHat]

https://news.sky.com/story/two-boys-believed-to-be-uks-youngest-knife-murderers-detained-for-minimum-of-eight-years-and-six-months-13221221

8.5 years minimum is nothing when these children are still only 13. They could be out at the same age of the man they killed. Why are sentences getting so lenient? I know some will say they are just children, but they are not so naive to not know what they were doing, and after the murder one of them was on social media saying "I don't really care" about the murder. It's just horrific and we need to have higher mandatory sentencing for all knife crimes including just carrying a knife.

The argument of 'they were kids' in this and other situations does not make sense to me. If they are capable of this as kids imagine what they will be capable of as adults.

I don’t know and don’t want to make assumptions however as there was only one knife owned by the mentally older child - it makes one wonder what exactly the other child did. I don’t understand why they got the same sentence.
Poor parents of the murdered young man.

Would you be happy to be tried by a jury of 10 year olds?

For crimes like these, there's no such thing as a deterrent. They were children, and brought up in such a way they felt it would be a good idea to murder an innocent person with a massive knife.

Does anyone actually think that prior to committing this appalling act, they thought 'well we'll probably just get eight years of prison and the world will know we're murderers, that's worth it for one afternoon of violent entertainment'? Of course they didn't. They aren't equipped to consider consequences at all.

It's beyond heartbreaking for the victims family but a longer sentence does absolutely nothing at this point. Those boys' issues were baked in.

You should care what has happened in their lives, if for no other reason than if we want to reduce the chances of this happening again we need to address ALL the factors in why it happened in the first place.

What?!?!?!?! What are you even trying to say?

The age of criminal responsibility in England is currently 10 years old, so are you saying that because they can be held criminally responsible they should be allowed to sit on a jury at the same age?

Or are you saying 10 year olds don't have a clue what they are doing and you wouldn't have them on a jury so they shouldn't be held criminally responsible for any crimes until they are 18 when they can sit on a jury?

Children at the age of 10 mostly know right from wrong. They may not know all the intricacies of it but the basics such as not killing someone, not stabbing someone, not stealing anything etc..... are there.

The families of those who are murdered often have very different reactions to those you expect.

From the sentencing remarks, it appears these children had not been brought up to know right from wrong, or the implications of extreme violence.

Say somebody of even 30 odd murders a 20 year old they get a sentence ("life" very occasionally) and are out at say, 50 when the victim would have only been been 40. What should happen is they calculate the average age the victim would have lived until and then put the murderer away for that length of time. For example, a 21 year old man would live to say, 80. He's died 59 years earlier than he naturally should have. If murdered by a 13 year old the kid is getting released at 72 if he's lucky. It would work for any age. A person kills a 60 year old and they themselves are 50, they will be released at 70 if at all. Basically any murderers should repay for the lives of the victim with their own liberty denied for at least the length the victim should have lived 20 years should be an absolute minimum. In reality, I think life should mean life and in certain cases I wholeheartedly agree with the death penalty

They were already known to the police, social services already involved, schools aware of issues. By all means work out why all of the services that will have been involved in their care haven't helped them and prevented this tragedy so that it doesn't happen again.

You can't excuse their behaviour though and blame there circumstances because there are plenty of young kids living shit lives that would never murder someone in cold blood with a machete.

Are you suprised?
Did you ever hear a sentence that wasn't lenient.
Would like to see some punishment for the humans that raised them also.
It's definitely in part down to the parents when they are 12.
Parents get off too lightly.
They are responsible for the scrotes!
If they have any younger children they should deffo be taken off them?

Not in my very real, lived experience with my friend. She wanted her sons killer locked up for life. She does not want him to live a full life (he will be out at the age of 44) after he is released as that privilege was removed for her son through no choice.

Why? That makes no sense.

Surely the one and only purpose of the criminal justice system is to reduce crime and make us all safer? Why would we implement any measure that does not achieve those ends?

Is retribution purely to appease society something we should be supporting?

I'm not trying to excuse anything , just trying to understand what some people hope to achieve by more severe sentences.

They are being detained 'at His Majesty's Pleasure' which theoretically is for the rest of their lives. Within that, there's a minimum sentence that they must serve, which has been set at 8.5 years.

This does not mean that they will be released then. If they are still considered a danger, they will remain in a secure provision for as long as any judge sees fit.

Even when they are released (if they are, and whenever it is) they will continue to be monitored, presumably tracked 24/7, for the rest of their lives.

I listened to a talk from a family of a child murdered - they felt that the perpetrators (similar background to these kids) would’ve had a life of petty crime offering nothing to society - going to prison got them access to support and they actually became functioning members of society on release. Obviously not a benefit of murdering their child, but they, the family of a victim, were open minded and gracious enough to accept that something “good” had come from something so awful. I also had one from a kid who had committed a similar crime and now gives talks to schoolchildren to try and divert them from criminality. Incredibly interesting and sad, both of them.

What do you hope achieve by shorter sentences? Cos I guarantee rehabilitation wont be achieved for the majority (not all) of them.

Hopefully they won't live that long.

I think its a reasonable sentence given their ages and the prospect of rehabilitation.

And when they are released and commit another crime it is too late to recall them to prison as that crime has already been committed (you just hope and pray it isn't another murder). They are tracked remotely it doesn't stop them committing crimes.

If they have had such an horrific life and need rehabilitation then I do not believe that can be done in 7.3 years (the minimum sentence they have left). You can't just erase that upbringing so quickly.

No. It's a life sentence with a minimum term of 8.5 years. So 8.5 years is the earliest point at which they can be let out on licence, and if their behaviour gives cause for concern, they can be hoicked back inside, even if they haven't committed a further offence.

The 13-year-old boys have been detained at His Majesty's Pleasure, which is the legal equivalent of a life sentence for a juvenile.
In theory, if the boys are considered a risk to the public they may never come out of prison.
However, if they make good progress and are considered not be a risk and behave well, they will be released - subject to the parole board agreeing - when they're 20.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/clyzwlpg6xwt?post=asset%3A814060dd-1fc6-4084-9a2a-8f5a2d9b1068#post

If they have had such an horrific life and need rehabilitation then I do not believe that can be done in 7.3 years (the minimum sentence they have left). You can't just erase that upbringing so quickly. Well, if the authorities don't believe they've been rehabilitated, they won't be let out.

Surely that's a failure of our system which created these boys if all these agencies were involved. There should be an element of rehabilitation in our justice system as it's very expensive to keep people in prison. Prison shouldn't be a revolving door.

Would like to see some punishment for the humans that raised them also.
It's definitely in part down to the parents when they are 12.
Parents get off too lightly.
They are responsible for the scrotes!

That would be reasonable if we had better support systems for parents who are struggling.