To Think This is Too Low a Sentance - 12 year olds knife killing

[LuckysDadsHat]

https://news.sky.com/story/two-boys-believed-to-be-uks-youngest-knife-murderers-detained-for-minimum-of-eight-years-and-six-months-13221221

8.5 years minimum is nothing when these children are still only 13. They could be out at the same age of the man they killed. Why are sentences getting so lenient? I know some will say they are just children, but they are not so naive to not know what they were doing, and after the murder one of them was on social media saying "I don't really care" about the murder. It's just horrific and we need to have higher mandatory sentencing for all knife crimes including just carrying a knife.

We aren't allowed to troll hunt on Mumsnet so gladly.

In another article apparently the guideline say 13 years is the starting point for this with their ages but can be increased or decreased with mitigation. I don't know why this judge chose to go to 8.5 years (which they are 10 months into that sentence already for time on remand) as it is so lenient in my unexpert opinion and as a mum it is heartbreaking for the parents of the murdered teenager.

I also read that the 12 year olds were "known to police" so they obviously have some sort of form for criminal behaviour.

I suspect these kids can't be rehabilitated and will comment another crime after they get released. Probably the same crime.

Not sure what detail you’re looking for but this is from the police report

But on 10 June at Nottingham Crown Court they were both convicted of Shawn’s murder. One admitted possessing a bladed article, while the second was found guilty of the same charge

No doubt they'll end up given new names and lives on their release for their protection.

Twelve years old. They should be prosecuting their parents for negligence.

They may not need new names as the judge has refused to let the media name them when a request was submitted.

That won't be for life. When they reach adulthood they will be named, if not before.

It’s been reduced down due to one of the defendants only just turning 12 at the time of the offence, their mental age and ability being less than that, they have suffered trauma, have been victims of child exploitation, violence in the home, having ADHD, they are now undergoing treatment etc etc.

Not saying I agree with any of this, just repeating the sentencing remarks which is on now.

Skynews and the BBC are both showing the judge outlining the sentencing decisions. If you’re serious about understanding the reasoning for the sentencing, I’d suggest watching that.

Sadly can't as at work. I will try and watch later on.

Child 1 is a victim of CSE and modern slavery

That’s tragic. But the violence wasn’t against their perpetrator.

Prison isn’t designed to be an eye for an eye - the system is in theory rehabilitative other than for those on WLO. Obviously can’t say as to whether that’ll be true of this case, but that’s how our system is currently set up. It’s tragic for the victim and his family, I can’t even imagine.

The mark of a civilised society is how they treat their prisoners.

You want to lock a child up and throw away the key? They’re 12. Something has gone very wrong in their lives for them to have done this. Rehabilitation should be tue aim, not more years in prison. How does that actually help anyone? Even leaving aside the huge cost to the taxpayer

Cooper ain't going to halve knife crime in a decade with bullshit punishments like this. Those kids are rats. We all see them around. Should be taken off the streets indefinitely.

I agree OP - it's a f*cking joke. They'll be out at 20 and have the rest of their lives to live - the poor lad they murdered was 19 - he won't have the rest of his life and his family will have a life sentence for the rest of theirs.

I don't care about what has gone on in their lives - social services, police, medical professionals and schools must all been involved over the course of their 12 years and tried to help – yet they've still gone on to commit murder with a machete. Lock them up – leave them there. Where's the deterrent in that sentence.

Also has a mental age of 10. Sounds like the other child from ‘a supportive family’ was a ring leader. He had the knife. I listened to the judges summary. Amongst the rest discussed above, she said there’s no evidence of premeditation. Which is strange because the older boy left school, got changed, and took the machete he’d bought a few days earlier, out with him that night. What exactly was this for, to peel an apple that fell off a tree in a nearby orchard? I can see why the slightly younger child got a reduced sentence but the ringleader - sentence too short. Hopefully will be extended at some point.

The fact they waited for a victim says it all. I would personally make the sentence long enough that they are middle aged and can't have a family. Many people suffer shit childhoods. It isn't an excuse to kill.

What would you expect a longer sentence to achieve? What do we expect from any sentence for any crime? What do we expect from the criminal justice system?

My 7 year old knows that you don't stab people with a knife as it could kill you, so a "mental age of 10" doesn't cut it for me.

(Not having a go at you for posting it, but the excuses from the judge).

Why?

I tell you who a large sentence might help - the family of that poor 19 year old who's had his life snuffed out. It might make them feel that their son was not disposable and his life had value. Rehabilitate those boys all you want - but do it in jail for the next 30 years so there is a fair punishment for their abhorrent crime.

Very common background when these types of crimes occur; it's almost predictable.
The demographic most likely to commit knife crimes is also the same demographic most likely to have been abandoned by a philandering father who takes no responsibility leaving a single mother in a low pay job to run the family.
A stable home life with active, caring, always present parents rarely results in children committing crimes like this.
I feel the fathers that abandon their children in these situations need to somehow be held responsible for the outcomes, perhaps more so than the children that actually do the crimes. These criminal children are largely created not born.

Justice for the victim/s or victims family is what most people expect from the system. And serving 8.5 years which is now down to 7.3 years due to remand is not justice in any form.

They will out at the same age as the victim, still have their whole lives ahead of them and the background sounds like it will be a matter of at least one of them being in and out of prison for the rest of their life.

One of my friends sons was murdered and if you saw her now she is a broken woman. It was a similar case to this, a stranger attack and it has broken that family forever. How can the sentences that have been given today be a deterrent? And I think previous sentences show they are not a deterrent at all. 5 years for carrying a knife should be the mandatory sentence and at least 30 years for murder no ifs no buts.

I very much doubt they thought well it's ok, if we're caught we could be out before we're 20 if we behave!
And kids stabbing people is rare, not typical. Ridiculous to suggest that most kids commit these crimes