To Think This is Too Low a Sentance - 12 year olds knife killing

[LuckysDadsHat]

https://news.sky.com/story/two-boys-believed-to-be-uks-youngest-knife-murderers-detained-for-minimum-of-eight-years-and-six-months-13221221

8.5 years minimum is nothing when these children are still only 13. They could be out at the same age of the man they killed. Why are sentences getting so lenient? I know some will say they are just children, but they are not so naive to not know what they were doing, and after the murder one of them was on social media saying "I don't really care" about the murder. It's just horrific and we need to have higher mandatory sentencing for all knife crimes including just carrying a knife.

They didn't get 8 years they got life with a minimum tariff, all that means is that's the first time the parole board will consider their cases

So much misinformation on this thread it makes me want to scream.

Yet the system is good enough to ensure that 99% of children of age 12 would not commit a murder.

But unfortunately in this case, it didn't work. Apparently there was a lot of external help and intervention with these children yet they were roaming the streets with a machete at night.

This.

May be the problem is not a system but psychotic nature of some individuals? In Scandinavian countries those people are treated in mental institutions and often the whole life for the benefit of society.

Thank you for the link. Eye-opening statistics, I did not expect it will be as much as 25-33%

What I want to know is will social services be involved with the potential siblings of these boys, because clearly the parents are completely unfit.

Children aren't generally diagnosed with disorders such as psychopathy because their brains are still developing.

From what I've read, the boy with the knife has had social services involved since he was born. He lived with his grandparents and collected knives; he had swords as well as the machete.

He had been the leader of a gang from the age of 9 and they roamed the area creating havoc for the locals. They were both in the park in the early hours of the morning so obviously neglected.

Questions have to be asked about how both boys were allowed to deal drugs, commit crimes, carry knives, terrorise people and roam the streets at all hours at such a young age.

Pity one of them didn't chop of his own d*ck whilst hiding it in his trousers.

Absolutely appalling what the victim's family have been through.

The parents were probably proud of them for their massive collection of knives🙄

I see your point. Let me rephrase. The system is sufficient enough to deal with more than 99% occurrences. However, those boys excibited some traits of Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD), rare (0,2-1%) mental disorder of psychotic and sociopathic nature that generally develops by age of 11 (you've mentioned one of the boys led the gang by gentle age of 9). ASPD believed to be lifelong disorder.

Thus, probably, the OP's post that questions the ability of those boys-killers to reintegrate into society. For example, Jamie Bulger' killers did committed crimes shortly after being released.

With regards to early diagnosis of ASPD, psychopathic or sociopathic personalities - isn't it an ethical dilemma? Generally kids considered to be innocent.

Upd: edited a few typos

No it's not an ethical dilemma, it's because the brain is still developing in childhood and children given a diagnosis of conduct disorder often don't have the traits in their 20s. Psychopathy is very rare and it's believed that their brains are wired differently.

These boys behaviour is unlikely to be genetic, it will be environmental and their brains are still developing, so they are perfectly capable of change given the right treatment.

Even if you truly believe boys like this can be rehabilitated, for things to have gone so badly wrong in their lives that they were committing murder at the age of 12, it’s gonna take a lot longer than 8 years of therapy and rehabilitation to make them function normally.

But in my opinion, they sound like they have disordered personalities and trauma so are probably lost causes let’s be real.

RIP Shawn.

I don't think we should write off children with trauma and/or mental health issues/personality disorders without trying to rehabilitate them.

All kids go through brain development (Behtereva N wrote brilliant books about child brain development). However, more than 99% of kids do not commit serious crimes, certainly do not murder innocent people. Kids tend to know right and wrong.

With regards of rarety of phycopathic behaviours - tbh I can't see the contradiction with what I said / provided data before.

ASPD develops only on youth younger than 15 y.o., generally before they turn 11. Once developed ASPD is not curable.

The cause of ASPD is not definitive. Most authors believe that it is caused by a combination of upbringing, serotonin level and genetics.

ASPD is a lifelong disorder with poor prognosis (Salekin, R. T., 2016; Bruce, M et all, 2015) due to low remorse or regret and consequent inability to see the impact of antisocial behaviour. Generally, people with ADPD tend to simulate remorse to get out. 78% people with ADPD commit crimes again (Fisher et all, 2019).

There is no ASPD cure unfortunatelly (my.clevelandclinic.org/health/diseases/9657-antisocial-personality-disorder#management-and-treatment). Medications and CBT can control symptoms to some extend, but would a person with ADPD take medications?

Who knows, may be those two boys/killers will be an examplery exception.

I do feel sorry for Shawn and his family. He was only 19.

Personality disorders can’t be treated though, that’s the problem. Only managed and it takes a lot of effort from the person with the diagnosis.
These kids don’t sound like they’d be released into a supportive family environment so will really struggle to manage their symptoms and triggers.
Trauma is also, so so hard to treat, I have CPTSD and lived with it since childhood, it never goes away, these kids clearly deal with their trauma by being aggressive and hurting others that’s why it looks doubtful they’d be rehabilitated in eight years, if at all.
I am not someone who’d write off mentally ill children but sometimes the damage just can’t be repaired/rehabiliated.

they will be out in a couple of months, if government has their way, to make space for some poor pensioner who shouted at a police horse and has to serve their 10 year sentence.

Personality Disorders aren't diagnosed in childhood, because the brain is still developing as is the personality. Only about 40% of boys with conduct disorder go on to develop antisocial personality disorder.

It's possible for a child as young as 13 not to go on to develop a serious personality disorder. This can be done with intervention and therapy and if he has something like ADHD, medication.If they went on to develop a personality disorder, they can learn strategies to mitigate it.

However, the original point was that the boys were neglected and let down by those meant to help them. With one of them, social services were involved from when he was a baby yet he went on to lead a gang at 9 collect knives, commit crime and roam the streets.

Now people are suggesting that he's a lost cause and to throw away the key. He's been let down all his life, so I suppose he's used to it.

Or potentially it's due to their pisspoor attitude towards gun control.

Homicides by knife are higher in the USA too.

For ethical reasons, the ASPD diagnosis tend to be confirm at the age of 18 in the UK if the antisocial behaviours were persistent before the individual reached 11-15 year old (NHS, various publications of Black DW). The ASPD tend to be developed by 11 y.o. Those boys are 13. According to one of your earlier posts, one of the boys developed all seven traits of ASPD before 9.

Some disorders are uncurable at the moment. Yet, person with ADHD highly likely would take medications to ease the symptoms because he would know the benefits. The person with ASPD (autocorrection keeps converting it to ADHD) / personality disorder most likely would not take medications to cure symptoms as his judgement of right and wrong is compromised. Medications can help to regulate aggression, anger, depression. Medications can't change personal beliefs. CBT is not always effective.

The person who would find a cure for ASPD would win a Nobel Prize at least.

I agree with you, the key should not be thrown and all endeavours should be used to support those boys. However, at present, there is very little can be done beyond what is already established within the UK juvenal penitentiary system. Yet, 78% people with ASPD would commit crime again. The probabity is 3 times more than the general repeat offenders rate.

I do hope those boys-killers would change. There is no hope for Shawn or his family. He was only 19.

This is getting very repetitive as you keep insisting that a 13 year old has fully developed, matured and has a non fixable personality disorder.

A child's brain hasn't developed properly and the last part of the brain to develop is the front which encompasses traits such as empathy and the consequences of your actions.

Children often display narcissism, impulsivity and lack of empathy. A child may be acting out due to adverse events in their life such as abuse and trauma.

In some studies, children who had psychopathic traits were observed as they grew up and less than a third had retained those traits. Like I said, only 40% of boys with conduct disorder go on to develop a serious personality disorder.

ASPD cannot be diagnosed in a child, the traits associated with it are called conduct disorder. As I keep saying, the boys can certainly be helped with good treatment as their brains haven't yet fully developed and they can change.

Hopefully they'll have access to therapy and other treatments and once away from their detrimental environment, will develop normally and go on to lead decent lives.

You have told us your beliefs but you have given no reason for anything you write. So I repeat: why? This time, why should every murderer, without exception, spend at leat 30 years in prison?

According studies, youth with ASPD were going significant lower on constrains than those with Conduct Disorder. There is a difference between a violation of rules and murder.
Those two commited a murder. They literally butched Shawn, his legs, back, scull. According the judge the fatal cut was 23cm deep right through his heart. They are monsters. Phycopathy is not curable.

Let's agree to disagree. Good bye