To Think This is Too Low a Sentance - 12 year olds knife killing

[LuckysDadsHat]

https://news.sky.com/story/two-boys-believed-to-be-uks-youngest-knife-murderers-detained-for-minimum-of-eight-years-and-six-months-13221221

8.5 years minimum is nothing when these children are still only 13. They could be out at the same age of the man they killed. Why are sentences getting so lenient? I know some will say they are just children, but they are not so naive to not know what they were doing, and after the murder one of them was on social media saying "I don't really care" about the murder. It's just horrific and we need to have higher mandatory sentencing for all knife crimes including just carrying a knife.

I think people trying to pretend these kids aren't kids just because this came has upset them, are absolutely ridiculous
If a 12 year old made sexual advances towards an adult and that person had sex with them would you hold the 12 year old responsible? If they appeared mature and said they knew what sex was and wanted to have sex with the adult?
You know you wouldn't. You'd still class it as rape. There's no way in Hell you'd think 'well that 12 year old completely knew what they were doing as they instigated it'
No you'd expect everyone to understand that whatever they may say or do or how they may appear a 12 year old IS A CHILD. And not truly capable of understanding the consequences of their own actions, therefore incapable of giving consent. NO MATTER HOW ADULT LIKE THEY MAY SEEM.

Now apply that to this. What's the difference? The difference is the shock. It's a horrific crime. Understandably it upsets people.
But you are doing utter mental gymnastics to suggest this is the one instance where 12 year olds have magically turned into adults and magically are in total control of their own actions abd totally able to understand the consequences of them.

The reality is a 12 year old is a child. Legally and morally. And they should be treated as a child under the law.
Don't let your emotional response cloud your reasoning.
These kids aren't adults. They do not have the same culpability as adults. This is a horrific tragedy and all 3 of these young people, the victim and the perpetrators have been let down by society and the various services who should have caught this before it happened.

Once they're out will they be given a lifetime of anonymity at public expense of will they be left to face the consequences of being such evil people?

I agree and these aren’t just troubled youths (as commented on other forums) but incredibly anti social, mentally disturbed individuals. I strongly believe they should be kept out of society.

Of course they didn't think those rational thoughts, they thought they would play in the big league and be heroes to those like them.

Purposefullyporous
What's the difference?

Eh, the difference is there is a dead person - who only died because these two children decided to plunge a machete through his heart. Deliberately. For no reason. Those are not the normal actions of anyone - adult or child.

Making a ridiculous comparison of a child wanting to have sex with you is just odd.

Are you seriously saying that children should never be punished or held responsible for their actions?

Also, the criminal age or responsibility in England and Wales is 10 years old.

It’s because they are children

IMO if you're old enough to do the crime, you're old enough to do the time.

💯 this. Just said as much to DH - this is not a fight gone wrong/one punch death - this is psychopath type behaviour - the murder itself and the total lack of empathy and feeling after. I very much doubt they can be rehabilitated.

So retribution basically?

If that's the case then they may well be. Some people simply aren't safe to be living in the community. But we don't know that, that'll be down to teams of people much better placed to decide.

If it's anything like the Bulger Killer, they will be in and out of prison and a massive drain on the taxpayer.

Why oh why do people think the US is the only country we can compare outcomes to -see the ridiculous way that people think the only alternative to the NHS is the US system despite there being many particularly European systems that are way better than the NHS. Similarly there are many countries that are very tough on crime and consequently have very low levels of crime - see Singapore, Japan etc. It is hard to compare US to anything as varies so much between states. Of course our weak liberal leaders and judges know that harsh sentences act as a deterrent which is why they came down so hard on the recent rioters as that was a threat to them not the poor normal members of public who have to fend for themselves.

Would the murder rate in the US drop to that of the UK, if they introduced more lenient sentences?

The US has a better prison system than us with proper infrastructure

We are not anywhere near equipped to cope with the amount of custodial sentences we get

Nowhere near

The USA also has nearly 5 times the population of the UK and they have a lot of access to guns, I'm surprised it's only 4 times the murder rate to be honest.

It's renowned as being barbaric, heavily biased and they have the death penalty.

@username4214 but they invest in it

And that's key

We should invest in prisons, it would create a lot of jobs. Building them, staffing them and all the associated services. Plus it would protect law-abiding people from criminals left on the streets and given carte blanche to do what they want until they kill someone and get caught.

That doesn't make sense. For example, the prisoners on death row are invariably ethnic minorities who are poor because in the States, you get off if you have enough cash, see O J.

Their prisons are overcrowded and strip prisoners of civil rights. In some states they have a three strike rule which is arbitrary.

It's renowned for being horrific. Your response is : they invest in it.

Oh, give over. 🙄

The US has an appalling prison system. It's brutal, the officers are often violent themselves, and there's virtually no effort at rehabilitation.

Serves the criminals right, you might say. We need a deterrent. But oddly enough it doesn't deter criminals. Prison simply doesn't work like that.

I'm not talking about the systems I'm talking about the physical infrastructure

They find the money and build them

You said:
The US has a better prison system than us

The physical buildings aren't necessarily the issue. It's getting the staff. My voluntary work is in a secure facility where those residents are generally not as difficult as in your average prison. But it's still hard to find officers of the right calibre. It's not a popular career, and in some prisons it's bleak and extremely stressful.

So you can build all the new prisons you like. It's staffing them. Just as building new hospitals isn't going to work without the staffing infrastructure.

If retribution is what you want that's perfectly valid but at least own it. The UK system of justice is known as retributive justice.

Retributive means relating to, or intended to be, deserved and severe punishment. It can be used to describe justice, action, or you might describe justice as retributive if you believe in punishment for its own sake, such as "retributive justice demands an eye for an eye".

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retributive_justice

I don't agree with it but if you do please think about it a little.