To think it's nonsense to believe that people chose homelessness?

[credflow012]

My friend is studying homelessness as part of a project in his sociology class. We were having a discussion last weekend and his belief was that anyone can become homeless but that he doesn't have much sympathy for the long-term homeless because most of them were addicts.

I found this ignorant and a bit offensive. Yes, people with substance-use disorder are overrepresented amongst the homeless but from volunterring with the homeless in college, I know that many started using after becoming homeless not the other way round. Mental illness, childhood trauma, and physical disabilites are very common in the chronic homeless and knowing how terrible healthcare is for the mentally ill and disabled even in many developed countries, I can't imagine how I'd personally be able to get out of that situation.

I think its clear who has run in circles. I literally defined exactly what you're missing, remember....
A kind heart, compassion, empathy, understanding.
You responded to say you don't care about that.

Add reading skills to that list above too.

I'm not the heartless fucker who wished homeless people dead, amongst other shit that was deleted because it was so vile. I'm more than happy in my life with my loved ones, we all share love, compassion and empathy. Oh and we are rich too, but the money is just a bonus rather than being my be all and end all. Have the day you deserve.

Aside from lack of funding, I also wonder how easy it is to recruit people to work in addiction and mental health support services, as well as supported housing?

I don’t have personal experience, but I imagine that such jobs are extremely stressful and sometimes dangerous, with high burnout rates.

I don't know how you can find it so hard to grasp. Let me try to dumb down my explanation for you. Some people love cocaine, if you don't take cocaine you probably don't miss it or have any interest in it or see any value in it. The same could be said for dogs. Some people love dogs and share their life with one some people think they are disgusting snivelling animals that belong outside. I am quite happy to accept whichever opinion on the matter because Ur doesn't concern me. The people who don't have dogs or take cocaine because they don't like dogs and cocaine don't feel that they are missing anything because to them these things are irrelevant or repugnant. I feel the same way about your entire sales pitch and have no interest in acquiring any kind of compassion. It would not serve me and is effectively useless except to people receiving said compassion. I have none to give and I expect none in return.

I know you are not the 'heartleas fucker' who wished homeless people dead. You don't need to explain that, so I can only assume you brought it up as though you think it offers you some kind of moral high ground of which I should be envious. I am not. You don't like this, and you can't do anything about it. Hence being so offended. People like me exist and whether you like it or not, and we live more content lives because we don't care about anybody else. It's sad that I have to explain this, but being good, kind or empathetic actually means fuck all in the world. It can however serve to soothe a damaged ego, we can tell ourselves even if we are hurt by others we are good, even if bad things happen we are kind etc. I do not feel the need to prop up my persona or get me through the day. I am perfectly content with things exactly as they really are in the world, even if it's shit and full of bad people. I do not need this belief system to make believe my way into thinking things or people are better than they really are.

@HoppingPavlova I don't think going by how things were several decades ago is relevant for the situation today - where in increasing parts of the country people can't get private rentals on lower incomes but there's a shortage of social housing.

However regarding the specific serious mental illnesses you mention. Some of those people might benefit from genuine supported housing. Even several decades ago it had very limited availability, at least in some parts of the country (maybe not where you worked?).

Supported housing as in 24/7 resident support staff - trained experts in whichever issue the housing complex is aimed at helping. Including managing medication scheduling.

Others with very severe conditions who genuinely can't manage independent living at all, even in genuine supported housing, might need something like in-patient accomodation - so then that should be provided.

The fact remains though that people who are genuinely unable to manage a home - even a genuine 24/7 resident expert staff supported home, make up a minority of homeless people.

The majority, whether in need of genuine supported housing or simply affordable housing, just need safe and affordable homes.

The need is more social housing

And separately, better public services that provide timely and effective help.

Times change. In the past there was more affordable housing (even in London).

Nowadays OP's friend could well find himself homeless one day. I realise he might be a mature student but as a student it's likely he's a young single man.

He could get ill or suffer a traumatic experience that leaves him unable to work. Then he'll find most landlords (except "slumlords" with substandard unsafe "housing") are the only ones who take benefits. And maybe none available near his family (which he needs to stay near for support).

Maybe he could live with his parents. Not everyone can. Abuse or other reasons. Even if he can, maybe they'll die or need a care home (so no inheritance to fund him housing).

Simply unfortunate life circumstances is all it takes nowadays for someone to become homeless.

Also also as I said previously, many people with substance issues aren't homeless. Including some very rich people.

My friend worked in a homeless shelter for 16-25yo.

She said the saddest part was 16yo coming in from school because their parents were useless fuckers and they had no where else to go.

There are children who are able and could go far. Not all are as society would make you believe.

She said it's being in the homeless shelter that starts them on a downward spiral into skipping school, drugs, alcohol and disenfranchisement.

She said sometimes it didn't matter how hard you worked with these kids they got sucked into the negative aspects of the environment.

Many then go from good students to homeless addicts.

It's not a choice. It's societal.

For someone studying sociology he doesn't seem to have a grasps of the basics of how society functions.

I seem to remember years of being homeless as a child and my mother certainly did not choose to be homeless, was certainly not an addict (she is very against drugs and doesn't touch alcohol!) and has no mental health issues other than residual anxiety decades later as a result of her experiences as a homeless single parent.

Has your friend watched Cathy Come Home? Things did get a bit better after that film was made, but my work supporting homeless or insecurely-housed mothers in a major UK city suggests we're pretty much back where we were then, after years of cuts to social housing, no rent caps or decent tenancy rights in the private sector, mould left by rogue landlords killing tenants, the local housing allowance, overcrowding, and cuts to services.

@Anotherparkingthread it's clear from your posts that you have none to give.

I think we need to take a different tack regarding housing. The current model of building new housing on large estates is still largely unaffordable for too many.

I remember reading about a housing project (I think in the North East) where IKEA had got involved and constructed some modular style houses. They looked pretty cool, eco friendly and very well insulated, and were a fraction of the price of traditional bricks & mortar homes. They could also be installed and ready to go in just a few days.

I don't understand why we aren't rolling this out across the country?

Most people are only a few paydays from homelessness really. Imagine you have a good job, you then lose your job, you have little savings and this goes on the rent but you can’t find another straight away. You’re evicted and can’t stay at a friends, you also cannot afford to find £2000 for a first months rent and deposit somewhere else and have no credit cards or family to sub you. The council won’t house you as you have no children. You’re homeless and it took 4 months.

I would disagree that those abandoning housing due to extreme mental health issues are choosing to be homeless. It’s the illness that is enforcing that choice of not being watched / controlled / near water and other examples people have given that forces the homelessness. I know that doesn’t answer how the hell can we help such people, but we are nowhere near tackling homelessness in ‘easy’ groups of people (for want of a better word, no offence intended), and even further from providing comprehensive mental health care, so I doubt we’ll ever reach the point that looking to help these much harder to place groups.

Although the flip side of all I've said, and that I believe in, we have an HMO that is fundamentally a homeless shelter at the end of our road. It's a nightmare. Drug dealing, littering in an extreme way, XL bullies despite no dogs being allowed, we are in contact with Caridon, the owners, who were on panorama at one point. One of my neighbours rescued a woman from a sexual assault yesterday, his parting shot was 'in my head it already happened', it's understandable that we become nimbies after a while.

Housing that is both good and affordable would impact property prices. Those with wealth and power who make the rules and control things have wealth invested in property. They won't agree to anything that makes them worse off.

Homelessness is NOT a choice. Nobody wakes up one morning and thinks "I want to be a homeless addict" life events, traumas and other unfortunate events lead people there. Most of us are only a few pay checks away from being in the same situation (homeless)

Having a heart and true empathy cannot be taught.

If you work and behave sensibly, the chance of being homeless-homeless are very low. You will always have a friend to help you in between rentals and eventually you will save up to buy

I'd be homeless if I didn't live with my mum. Or maybe I'd live in a hostel. Or a really cramped flat share with strangers hundreds of miles from where I grew up.
Nobody chooses to be homeless. But some people only have enough money for a bag of heroin a day, not enough to rent a room for a month. So it's hand to mouth existence. Sleeping rough, the average life expectancy is 40s, lower for women than men. Choose that? I don't think so.

This is hopelessly naive.

Lmao wow cute how old are you? 12?

@credflow012 Does your friend know how care leavers end up on the streets?

And that is exactly why some people "choose" to be street homeless. The alternative is very unsafe. Not that street homeless is safe either. There's no safe choice. Which is appalling - and why

a) there needs to be an end to one size fits all, putting all homeless people in the same housing

b) genuine supported housing, not HMOs, for people with substance issues and (separately unless concurrent substance issues) those with mental health issues that make it impossible or very difficult to live independently. Supported as in safe accomodation - and vitally with 24/7 well-trained expert support staff

And (most important of all)
c. more social housing across the UK including accessible homes and studios/1 bedroom homes for single households.

Also, separate from housing, wel-funded public services so people access effective and timely help.

NB. People might say it's too expensive. It's not. Aside from the moral need for a civilised society, failure to have safe affordable housing and well-funded and well-run public services costs many billions. It also increases crime and causes a decline in society.

My ex Bil is homeless. He is the kind of person who OPs friend would probably see as making a choice to be homeless: He is extraordinarily passive, doesnt have a job, makes almost no effort to find work and when he does, has been fired multiple times for a combination of incompetence and attitude. He truly believes that his ex should be housing him and feeding him and supporting him. He is pretty much the classic example of a vulnerable narcissist.

I cannot stand the man.

But... the reality is that he is seriously damaged. That he was hugely let down as a child, first by his family then by social services. He has genuinely had a difficult time. His ex did her best to support him and help. She offered him enough lifelines she could have saved everyone on the Titanic, up to and including paying for private mental health support.... but he would not (could not) engage with any of this. His persona as the victim is so deeply entrenched he cannot even envision a world in which he isn't one.

I hate him. I also feel very sorrier for him than anyone else i have ever met in person. I would be quite happy for my taxes to be used, in part, to provide better solutions for him and people like him. He is a terrible father and has zero caring responsibilities so, as has been pointed out, the support for him is almost non existent. Creating an awful, non-virtuous circle.

As a test, maybe namechange and post a thread about that. Say you've become too ill to work and have run out of your savings (used to live off) and now can't afford your rent or mortgage.

Ask AIBU to ask a friend of family to fund me for an ongoing basis (and it needs to be ongoing because benefits don't cover full private rent, and don't cover mortgages).

Ask AIBU to have a friend or family member be a guarantor on a rental (because many landlords only accept benefits if there's a home owning guarantor) meaning that family member or friend risks their own home. Obviously that's no good anyway for many people because not everyone's family or friends own their home.

Or just look through threads on MN. People who've been made redundant or become ill - and are homeless or at risk of it as a consequence.

Or the many DV victims who fled and are in homeless accomodation. And no they weren't DV victims because of not "behaving sensibly". Abusers can be very manipulative and charming, and don't wear t-shirts declaring they're abusers. Many don't show their true colours until the victim is trapped (pregnancy and illness are high risk factors).

Even without DV, there's many lone parents, usually women, who've been left to support their DC alone when the deadbeat dad swans off and doesn't pay child support (including sometimes high earners). Again, like DV, often the fact they're deadbeat parents only becomes apparent after it's too late.

Also some people are disabled or ill from childhood. How do they save up to buy? Or carers including parents of disabled children? Or people doing the lower paid but still important jobs? They can't all get higher paid jobs because someone has to do those jobs.

@Windchimesandsong exactly, some of them really don't want to be there. Better places should be available, assuming all homeless people are the same therefore shoving a motley crew into one place doesn't work, it should be more need /want assessed. But it costs. So people suffer in these places, and on the streets, and so do residents. No one wins.

Yes maybe ignorant but....
What about people with the same who manage to work & care for themselves without becoming homeless.

Sorry btw @Ifoughthefight I didn't intend my post to be so passionate. I don't intend it as having a go at you and hope you don't read it that way. I'm quite sure you just don't realise how things are (which is the case for many people) and any anger I feel about it is not directed at you. Previous successive governments failure to address the issues is who's to blame.

I understand why you might think how you do. Many people don't realise how frighteningly easy it is for someone to "do everything right" but still become homeless. Also how badly failed many very vulnerable people are by society. I think maybe because lots of people think there's an effective safety net. There isn't but there should and hopefully will be soon.

Separately re another poster's concerns
Housing that is both good and affordable would impact property prices.

I doubt more social housing would lead to significant house price drops. At most just a small one. Lots of people still want to buy (even if they initially need social housing). Owning gives more freedom of choice over where to live and type of home. It also gives equity in later life - and freedom from the expense of rent payments when retired and on what's for many people a small pension.

There's also still going to be a need for some private landlords. Young people including but not only students who've not yet ready to settle down in a particular area or home, people on long-term work placements away from home, people in-between house moves especially they have a buyer but haven't found a new place yet, etc.