To think that non-binary candidates are more unlikely to be offered a job?

[GinnyPiggie]

I have a non-binary child in their twenties and they are really struggling to secure work.

It might be unfair of me, but I really think that in presenting themselves as non-binary, they are going to struggle to be offered a job with the vast majority of employers. Yes this might be pure discrimination but personally I'd be worried about HR issues and getting sued for saying the wrong thing.

AIBU to think that if you have a range of good candidates, you are going to be reluctant to hire a non-binary candidate because of the potential for issues in the office?

Yes it is legal. The Equalities Act does not cover identities like "non-binary" and there have been various attempts to try to get "non-binary" recognised in law.

But stating pronouns isn't even stating your gender identity.

Unfortunately if you introduce your pronouns as 'they and them' in a job interview, the only time the interviewer is likely to use them is by saying 'They didn't get the job'.

Yes, exactly this. I’d find a way to wrap the interview up as quickly as possible to save wasting any more of either of our time.

Someone who works at my local library is obviously female but wears a badge saying “they/them.” Every time I need to ask something at the desk, I hope someone else is there, because I don’t believe in “they/them” ideology and who knows if some situation is going to arise where I have to refer to this person with pronouns. Unlikely, but I just don’t even want to go there. I can imagine that, looking at several equally qualified candidates, some employers “don’t even want to go there” too.

It's the pronouns, and what people assume comes with them.

No employer or potential fellow colleague is going to mind if you're a short haired female called Bert, who dresses in men's suits, plays Dungeons and Dragons, and resists the assumption that you ought to make the tea.

But many employers and potential fellow colleagues are going to mind if you indicate that you would like to dictate the words people use to describe you when you're not there.

Some will conclude that your wish to control the speech of others indicates one or more of the following: you're not a team player; you will seek recompense if people slip up or decline to play along, either through HR or the police; you are not outward looking; you will focus more on your identity than the work.

Some will worry that you harbour authoritarian, homophobic and misogynist attitudes, because of your stated belief in gender ideology.

Some employers may have a workforce made up primarily of white middle class 20 somethings who put pronouns in their emails and here you might be a great fit. Many employers, especially in less than elite jobs, will have a far more diverse workforce and will worrying about how to balance your demands against their other employees' needs.

There's also the fact that many jobs come with customers, service users, clients or children. Again, your wish to control the speech of others with have an impact here too. Some of these stakeholders may be neurodiverse, speak English as an additional language or be otherwise disadvantaged. The employer might suspect you will proselytise about your belief system and feel that is not appropriate for their service users, especially if children.

I would be strongly suggesting my child let go of the requirement for preferred pronouns. They will find a new kind of far more genuine validation when they are valued for the work they do when they get a job. It will do them good to spend time with people from different walks of life and to discover that we all have far more in common than these divisive belief systems would have us realise.

No you didn’t you implied I was racist. Don’t worry we’ve all had a good laugh at that one.

As I have said no I won’t hire NB or trans people. It’s undiagnosed mental illness not a protected characteristic. I’m not apologetic about it. I care about my existing employees.

Do you not think I should be protecting my female colleagues from 6ft5 Fred who’s decided to use the women’s bathroom this week. What about my female Muslim colleague who use this safe space to remove her scarf and adjust her hair? Should she be confined to the cubicle?

I don't believe for a second that an interviewer would say that. If they didn't have the nous themselves, then whoever from HR was organising/attending the interviews would make jolly sure that everyone involved knew NOT to make comments like that. (I do realise, BTW, that not all interview scenarios involve HR, but am assuming that at least some that your DD has attended do).

So no black people in an all white team ?
No to a camp looking man or a butch looking woman?

"They present as non-binary by saying "Hello my name is <male name> and my pronouns are 'they/them'" (They are a natal female.)"

It's wildly unprofessional, partly because it's an oversharing of personal ideology (as pp analogising with religion or sexuality have already pointed out) but also because it undermines the power dynamic between job applicant and potential employer by attempting to set the terms of the encounter from the outset.

I would be utterly alienated by this introduction, but, despite being GC myself, would feel very differently about OP's daughter if, say, I led her to the interview room and announced, "This is Harry, She's here to interview for X job" and Harry then replied "Oh, I prefer they to she actually, if it's not too much trouble."

Getting along with others in the workplace is a basic life skill and OP's dd is failing on that front at the moment. Arguably nothing to do with being non binary per se imo.

I really don’t think this would happen.

Most employers are pretty clued up these days and wouldn’t dream of saying something like “That’s an unusual name for a woman” for fear of discrimination accusations.

People might think it yes, but there really is no need for your child to explain. Explaining isn’t going to change what they may think anyway.

Being upfront about it = making it a big topic of the interview, which is really not what the interview is supposed to be about.

IME non-binary employees tend to be hard work, with everyone walking on eggshells so as not to misgender them. On a couple of occasions, they got their knickers in a twist because they felt victimised. This wasn't the case at all.

It depends on type of job and employer.
There are many employers looking for NB graduates running recruitment schemes. You can google find companies specifically recruiting to become more diverse.

Advice to anyone, anyone, looking to get hired. Try to see what the culture is at the employer, see how people dress/present selves. Discriminatory or not, “fit” is thing. I’ve seen people interview as looking very “neutral”, then slowly adopt their own style once ALREADY employed and doing a good job. For example, at previous employer young “average” woman joins and within few months, she is presenting as a young man. Corporate job. It was short hair, then men’s look shirt, then ties, trousers, men’s shoes. She got the job, did it well and what could anyone say about???

Most people, regardless, play a role at work or while getting a job. It might be against how they feel it should work, but that’s how to get a job, be the person the employer wants … DC might want to approach looking for a job as being that person the employer is looking for. Then become themselves once they get the paychecks.

I have worked with youth in transition, from care, disadvantaged backgrounds. Mainly looking for work in shops, food & Bev. Advice was always, visit the shop first - see how other employees are dressed, wear hair & jewelry. Copy/adopt similar dress/hair/jewelry for interview so that employers seems them as a “fit”. Your self expression may be a distraction at interview... The goal is getting the job.

I think your DCs intro sounds attention seeking and a bit like they're trying to be different. I couldn't be arsed with that- it is completely irrelevant to the interview.

It's like I'm Jane and a sunny side up Leo. Great, thanks for that. If they think it's that important to say it in their first like then I wouldn't hire. Pronouns really don't need mentioning at an interview at all. It's a face to face, no one is saying she/him/ they etc

When referring to the "binary concept of male and female," it traditionally relates to the idea that gender is strictly divided into two categories based on biological sex (i.e., male and female bodies). However, when we talk about "presenting themselves as non-binary," it’s not only about bodies but also about how people express their gender identity beyond those traditional categories.

Appearance, pronouns, behaviors, and language are ways individuals can communicate their gender identity to others. While bodies might be traditionally classified under male or female, non-binary presentation is about how someone chooses to externally express their internal sense of gender—which could include:

Clothing choices that don’t conform to traditionally male or female norms.

Hair and makeup that blend or reject gendered styles.

Pronouns like "they/them," which move away from binary identifiers like "he" or "she."

Behaviors that don’t fit stereotypical masculine or feminine roles.

These forms of expression are important because gender identity is not solely tied to physical bodies but is also about how individuals feel and wish to be recognized. Even if someone’s biological sex is male or female, their gender identity and how they present themselves might not align with those physical attributes. That's where appearance and behaviors come into play, helping to visually and socially express something that goes beyond just the physical body.

Why are you basing on wether someone fits it on appearance only?

Maybe it'll come about that interviewers can/should ask candidates which pronouns they prefer. Of course for this to be discreet, they would have to ask everyone, but someone who's dressed like a women and has a woman's name, or a big burly fella with a man's name might not really appreciate the question.

Other employees possibly not using "they" pronouns, accidentally or otherwise, and the possible resulting problems?

To put things in perspective: the singer Halsey did an interview in which she said that they use she/they pronouns. The interviewer referred to her as "she" throughout. They then publicly accused the journalist of disrespecting her by only using "she" instead of alternating pronouns throughout the article (how was the journalist even supposed to know that?), leading to the journalist being harassed online. (I've alternated she/they pronouns throughout this paragraph to show just how confusing it is.) After all that, Halsey has now apparently returned to "she" only.

That's a small taste of the HR nightmare that hiring a non-binary person can cause. Can you imagine being expected to discipline your staff for not alternating pronouns enough while talking about someone? Or for instinctively referring to a female colleague who wears skirts and make-up as "her"?

Nope it means not hiring someone who says" Hi I am Kevin and I am a black bisexual Jehovahs Witness".

A lot of attempts have been made to equate black and brown people to non binary people. Not the same. Never the same.

Guessing pronouns have been added to their CV? I’m in academia so have got used to many students demanding to be known as they/them over the past few years, it really has exploded and there’s even a couple of colleagues now using they/them. Some confusingly use their actual sex based pronoun but also they/them sometimes which baffles me most of all. Many colleagues add pronouns to their email signature now, I have not and will not because I don’t deem it necessary when my name is very obviously female…

I’d say it depends on the industry they’re trying to break into. If they’re going for a job within the arts, they’ll probably be fine but might struggle at an engineering firm.

I think it’s a bit like we used to say ‘married’ or be asked about kids when applying for jobs. We shouldn’t mention or be asked about anything personal.

Focus on the skills they want and suitability for the job.

No to someone whose shouting it at first meeting. There's no need to walk into an interview and introduce yourself as, " I'm Harry and I'm a camp black man". The interviewer isn't saying, " Thanks, I'm Sally a bi-curious half lantino woman".

Hiring someone who states a "gender identity" is putting other employees at risk of having to walk on eggshells. I would not be prepared to put current employees in that position and create a tense working environment.

There are plenty of companies or organisations where this wouldn't be a problem and they would be welcomed. Perhaps she needs to research the company better before applying.

To illustrate my point, thought that was obvious!

In an interview situation everything you tell the panel must be aimed at showing how well good you are the job. 'Hi, lovely to meet you, I'm so excited to demonstrate how my prize winning SQL skills make me the ideal candidate for the Smith account.' - great, your skills are the most important thing about you. 'hi my name is Kevin and I'm non binary using pronouns he/him' - tells me you regard that as the most important thing you want to convey to the panel.

How is using a male name and pronouns NB though - that's having picked one of the binaries surely.?