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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why is Kamala referred to as a Black Woman?

374 replies

Vior · 11/09/2024 16:09

Watched a doc on iplayer and it struck me that many commentators referred to Kamala as a black woman. It’s not just sloppiness as some of the black, democrat women participating did similar.

It intrigues me. Especially as a woman with a half Indian daughter. I think I would be pretty surprised if DD referred to herself as purely English or purely Indian. She can pass for both depending on tan.

I know the US has a much different view on race and assume it is based on that. Genuinely interested. Not rage baiting. Have googled the question and no answer has really emerged.

OP posts:
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Isthisexpected · 12/09/2024 13:01

I have a thread on here at the moment OP as a mixed race woman. My mum has no idea how I feel or identify and it's not fixed. I don't know how to link it but it's in black MN and is called "I'm not black enough". Some really interesting discussions from us mixed race women.

SonicTheHodgeheg · 12/09/2024 13:05

My absolute pet hate is the stupid tick boxes on forms where you have to decide. I refuse to fill them in.

Agreed. Even worse when someone is filling a form in for you and they’ve never considered someone mixed race who doesn’t have black and white parents and the forms lump all mixed race people together.

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 13:13

ThisOchreLemur · 12/09/2024 09:22

"but so did the Spanish man shot by police in a tube station after the bombings!)" I thought he was brazilian..

I can't remember. His name was Carlos. Brazilian sounds familiar and he was a Spanish speaker. But his precise nationality doesn't matter, it was that he was of European extraction and olive skinned. My DD actually told my DS not to carry the back-pack when they visited London together (family there) after the bombings. She was not joking.

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 13:15

Dotjones · 12/09/2024 09:24

Because she is? Remember until fairly recently (1960s) it was illegal for white people to marry black people in some states. The way it was defined was if you had any black blood in you, you were black. Some people "passed for white" - they looked white, they didn't correct people when they were mistaken for being white - but legally they were still black. It didn't matter how far back you went, if any of your traceable ancestors were black, so were you.

That's the infamous one drop rule. I thought we'd ditched that one.

ThisOchreLemur · 12/09/2024 13:24

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 13:13

I can't remember. His name was Carlos. Brazilian sounds familiar and he was a Spanish speaker. But his precise nationality doesn't matter, it was that he was of European extraction and olive skinned. My DD actually told my DS not to carry the back-pack when they visited London together (family there) after the bombings. She was not joking.

His name was Jean Charles de Meneze and was Brazilian. It does not matter he was Spanish speaker, anyone from anywhere in the world could be Spanish speaker despite their skin colour. In Argentinia they speak Spanish and lot of people there are fair skin, blonde and blue eyes.

I'm Spanish from Spain and I lived in London around that time, even I'm not olive skin (I only heard that term in UK, in Spain we considered ourselves white dos not matter if we are tanned or not. ) I was afraid as I think just being foreign makes you more vulnerable to this kind of "mistakes" as the police made with this Brazilian guy.

mixigoc176 · 12/09/2024 13:34

We all have three racial identities.

  1. A matter of fact based on genetics
  2. How we identify
  3. How others perceive us
2 is a complicated one. It's partly based on our genetics, the parents who raised us, where we were born, where we grew up, our cultural beliefs... and it can change over time. It's especially complicated if you're 50/50, as it doesn't take much of a small change to make you identify differently.

3 is just pure ignorance. But we have to live with it. How you are treated is not based on your genetics or how you identify but how people see you.

If someone's skin tone does not look wholly pale-skinned, chances are, people will make an assumption and treat them differently because of it.

I imagine most people with some black heritage are treated as wholly black as for some people, that's all they can see.

And if you're treated as being something, sometimes that shifts your own identify.

How I identify today is not necessarily how I'll identify tomorrow. And that's fine. My genes, my family, how I grew up, how I live now... that's my unique story. Only I have the right to decide how I feel about it.

Hunglikeapolevaulter · 12/09/2024 16:39

Exactly. As an American if I see any non-white person, regardless of whether they're Mexican or Asian or native American I just call them black. It's just easier that way.

That's crazy to me. I wouldn't consider anyone with any of those heritages to be black.

Weidly, unlike the US, apartheid South Africa didn't go in for the one drop rule. They'd actually reclassify anyone as white who was light enough and could pass culturally. I know someone who was reclassified so she could marry her white partner.

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 16:41

ThisOchreLemur · 12/09/2024 13:24

His name was Jean Charles de Meneze and was Brazilian. It does not matter he was Spanish speaker, anyone from anywhere in the world could be Spanish speaker despite their skin colour. In Argentinia they speak Spanish and lot of people there are fair skin, blonde and blue eyes.

I'm Spanish from Spain and I lived in London around that time, even I'm not olive skin (I only heard that term in UK, in Spain we considered ourselves white dos not matter if we are tanned or not. ) I was afraid as I think just being foreign makes you more vulnerable to this kind of "mistakes" as the police made with this Brazilian guy.

Thank you. I also think of Spanish people as being white. It's only in the US they have these weird distinctions e.g. Hispanic.

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 16:43

This reply has been deleted

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Discsareshit · 12/09/2024 18:24

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 16:41

Thank you. I also think of Spanish people as being white. It's only in the US they have these weird distinctions e.g. Hispanic.

Hispanic is what they use for Latinos, not really for Spanish people.

Discsareshit · 12/09/2024 18:25

"Brazilian sounds familiar and he was a Spanish speaker. "

Even if he did speak Spanish, his Portuguese would be better wouldn't it?

CloudywMeatballs · 12/09/2024 18:29

In the US (I don't know about elsewhere), if someone has some Afro-Caribbean ancestry they can be considered to be Black.

Kamala Harris is a black woman. She has Jamaican heritage and Indian heritage. She is a woman of color.

WinnyMoms · 12/09/2024 18:30

It's both. Look at the definition:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hispanic#:~:text=1,Hispanic%20noun

AncientAndModern1 · 12/09/2024 19:22

Good grief. This little girl with a black father and an Indian mother saying she is black and Indian is RACIST? She has long identified both as black and South East Asian because she IS.

Why is Kamala referred to as a Black Woman?
Why is Kamala referred to as a Black Woman?
TheOriginalEmu · 12/09/2024 19:36

I’m half Welsh, half Japanese. Growing up in rural Wales in the 80s as the only non-white kid I had allll the shit thrown at me. That awful song about ‘ching Chong Chinaman’ etc etc.

Then I went to uni in a large English city anc suddenly people barely noticed, they thought I was white with ‘pretty eyes’. I have a Welsh name so people just didn’t really know. Or if they did they notice they were nothing but nice.

Then, in the last 5 years or so I’ve been called ‘white passing’ and that I have all this privilege and that I don’t know the struggles of POC. And yet at home, I’m still ‘the Chinese girl’.

so the point is, Kamala can identify however she wants.

Evilartsgrad · 12/09/2024 22:15

AncientAndModern1 · 12/09/2024 19:22

Good grief. This little girl with a black father and an Indian mother saying she is black and Indian is RACIST? She has long identified both as black and South East Asian because she IS.

It's astonishing, isn't it? Of course she's black! I mean, FFS.

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 22:43

Discsareshit · 12/09/2024 18:25

"Brazilian sounds familiar and he was a Spanish speaker. "

Even if he did speak Spanish, his Portuguese would be better wouldn't it?

Very likely.

knitnerd90 · 12/09/2024 22:43

(South Asian, not SEA)

And yes, Spanish people are seen as white in the US, though some might check off Latino/Hispanic in the census I suppose. The census doesn't consider Latino a race. It's a separate ethnicity question. Most US Latinos identify either as white or mixed race. Interestingly, Dominicans with substantial Afro-dominican heritage usually classify themselves as mixed, not Black; there's some complex history there.

This is how the Census classifies race. There was a proposal to separate MENA from White, but it did not happen.

www.census.gov/newsroom/blogs/random-samplings/2021/08/measuring-racial-ethnic-diversity-2020-census.html

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 22:52

TheOriginalEmu · 12/09/2024 19:36

I’m half Welsh, half Japanese. Growing up in rural Wales in the 80s as the only non-white kid I had allll the shit thrown at me. That awful song about ‘ching Chong Chinaman’ etc etc.

Then I went to uni in a large English city anc suddenly people barely noticed, they thought I was white with ‘pretty eyes’. I have a Welsh name so people just didn’t really know. Or if they did they notice they were nothing but nice.

Then, in the last 5 years or so I’ve been called ‘white passing’ and that I have all this privilege and that I don’t know the struggles of POC. And yet at home, I’m still ‘the Chinese girl’.

so the point is, Kamala can identify however she wants.

If Kamal Harris can identify however she wants can I identify as black and from Swaziland and my pronouns are 'your imperial majesty/her imperial majesty. Is that ok?
I doubt that it is. One cannot identify into a race any more than you can identify into s sex.
I also find the 'one drop rule'/if you have any black ancestry trope deeply racist (and weird, we almost all will have some black ancestry somewhere.

knitnerd90 · 12/09/2024 22:53

The fact that you personally find it offensive does not mean it does not have social significance.

In any case, this is hardly one drop. She's half Black. We're not talking about a single Black ancestor 6 generations back. In practice, it's not Jim Crow anymore.

CraftyOP · 12/09/2024 23:36

I'm mixed race with a black grandparent. I would say you're never going to win looking for answers from a mostly mono-racial community because most people don't understand the nuances, what it means how it feels. Most people don't realise that I'm mixed, it's not something people understand too well. Americans don't generally have the same concept of mixed race that we do here, many mixed Americans didn't know the term until moving here and some find it offensive, preferring bi-racial etc. People also can't always get their head around the idea that there are other mixes than first generation black/white. Anyway, don't worry too much about how Kamala Harris identifies, it's very personal and there aren't always role models. I recommend the mixed bloom room on Instagram, there are great posts that I find hugely helpful

CraftyOP · 12/09/2024 23:45

@Grammarnut self identification is hugely important to mixed race people because what we are often isn't recognised by society, often we take the ethnicity that society decides we are (which is often misjudged) but that isn't often the correct ethnicity. If someone has a black parent and a white parent why shouldn't they self identity as black or mixed. What about people like myself who look white, why should you tell me I can't self identity because no-one else out there, family aside would recognise the black heritage that I'm proud of. I don't want to erase my identity so why should I let anyone identify me but myself, because 99.9% would get it wrong. Not because they're right but because in reality they don't know many people with a black African grandparent

Cailleach1 · 12/09/2024 23:52

BeatsAntique · 11/09/2024 17:26

Have to agree with this! I live in the US and President Obama will have gone through his life as a Black man.

Regardless of half his family being white and being raised by his white family, school, work, the police, other social and commercial institutions will have perceived him as a Black man and treated him accordingly.

It’s wrong, but it’s a thing here. Black people—especially Black men—are treated differently and have a different life experience than white men. His life experience is that of a man of color. Through the 70s-90s, especially, life was incredibly hard for POC in the US. It’s moving in a better direction in many areas, but systemic racism is a very real thing.

I wonder if it was quite the same in Hawaii (where Obama lived) as in other parts of the US though, considering the original population are Polynesians. Indeed it only became a US state in 1959.

As an aside, it is interesting that the flag of Hawaii has the Union Flag (Union Jack) on it.

Moonshine5 · 13/09/2024 00:00

"it intrigues me. Especially as a woman with a half Indian daughter. I think I would be pretty surprised if DD referred to herself as purely English or purely Indian. She can pass for both depending on tan"
OP you're confusing several issues.

  1. Kamala is of black heritage and therefore is referred to as such in the UK and US.
  2. You're child born in the UK is of Indian heritage. Idk what a 'tan' has to do with anything, you're referring to the colour of her skin. "Pass for both?" They're not mutually exclusive.
SelMarin · 13/09/2024 00:20

I think its a mistake to think there's a comprehensive code on this, it's multi-factoral and contextual.