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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Why is Kamala referred to as a Black Woman?

374 replies

Vior · 11/09/2024 16:09

Watched a doc on iplayer and it struck me that many commentators referred to Kamala as a black woman. It’s not just sloppiness as some of the black, democrat women participating did similar.

It intrigues me. Especially as a woman with a half Indian daughter. I think I would be pretty surprised if DD referred to herself as purely English or purely Indian. She can pass for both depending on tan.

I know the US has a much different view on race and assume it is based on that. Genuinely interested. Not rage baiting. Have googled the question and no answer has really emerged.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
Talkinpeace · 11/09/2024 22:18

@Littlegirll
It is worth bearing in mind that due to slave ownership history
the vast vast majority of black Americans have some white ancestry
regardless of the colour of their skin
or their 'identity'

Bob Marley's dad was a white bloke from Hastings after all

BellesAndGraces · 11/09/2024 22:53

Littlegirll · 11/09/2024 22:08

I'm mixed race. I'm half one race and half another. If you're 1/4 black then you're a 1/4 black. That's still mixed race. Barack Obama is mixed race and there's nothing wrong with embracing both sides of his family.

Think you should let Barack Obama know that he’s not a black man after all. It seems as though he has been misidentifying himself his whole life. How lucky for him and many others that you’re here to correct them.

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 09:08

itsallsohard · 11/09/2024 19:35

This is such a thorny subject I feel, for clarity but also for my own safety, the need to start by pointing out that I am myself what we in the UK call mixed-race. But I spent the first half of my life in North America, various bits, before coming to the UK.

So, let's start with some basic facts:
When Barack Obama first became a presidential candidate, our UK newspapers all referred to him as "mixed-race." Only when he made it clear he identified as black, or Black, did the UK papers switch. It took about two weeks.

With Meghan Markle, there was also a bit of back-and-forth, but it was much shorter, possibly because she made her own view clear quickly. What weirded me out a bit at first is that not only does she straighten her hair but she clearly (look at pictures of her over time) uses skin-lightening cosmetics and may even have had a nose job -- and why shouldn't she? In Hollywood I bet that was a survival tactic.

Kamala Harris's father is Jamaican and always as far as I know identified as black, and she attended a historically black university, Howard. However, looking at photographs, he himself clearly had some non-black background, as most North and South American origin blacks do, owing to slavery and the resulting sexual abuse of female slaves by white slaveowners.

Vanessa Williams was announced as the first "black" Miss USA winner in 1984. She has blue eyes, which are recessive even among white people.

My personal view, based on my own experience, is that we have to go by how people self-identify. But there are some complications, again, between the US and the UK. It is in my experience true that in the UK we are more likely to use the term "mixed-race' where we Americans assume "black." (I use we in both cases because I lived in both places!)

Here in the UK I have a good friend from the subcontinent, Sri Lanka to be clear, who refers to himself as "black" because he's very dark-skinned. But in North America "black" definitely means of African ancestry. And really, the subcontinent seems to me where the question really arises: what is race? is it skin colour or what? Because if your ancestry from the southern bits, you will tend to be much darker; if you're from the north, you tend to be much lighter, owing to the fact that northern India was the home of the original Aryan "race." (Google it!)

Americans haven't yet looked at Kamala Harris's other side because there aren't as many south Asians in North America as in the UK, so they don't really have a mental category. But look at the tangle they still sometimes get into over the definition of "Hispanic": most forms there now offer categories like "Hispanic White" "Hispanic Black" "Hispanic other". In fact, official US census forms do not offer a specific category for "south Asian" but do not only for "East Asian" but in fact for subcategories such as Hmong, etc etc.

In short, I have no answers. But like OP, I think it's a valid point of discussion, as long as no one around the table starts getting upset. Like other PP, I wish I didn't constantly confront this question on forms, but I'd be glad to have more discussion over my dinner table. Then again, I got quite upset recently when some of my dinner guests said that Middle Easterners are not white my reactions was, Arabs are clearly not Anglo-Saxon but they are clearly white? Do Brits think the only kind of "white" there is is Anglo-Saxon? I also get a bit worked up when filling in forms for my children they are even more white than I and basically look white, but, still, they're my children and people in the UK, though not quite sure and usually polite, can definitely tell I'm not... Anglo-Saxon. I don't blame anyone for discussing it, though: I'm glad we're discussing it.

My GDD's BF is Welsh. I have met him only once. He is olive-skinned in a Mediterranian/North Africa fashion, with black hair and dark brown eyes. Typically Welsh, and how the Romans described the Silurii, the tribe they found in West Britannia. Undoubtedly he is white, and it is unlikely he has any other ancestry but Welsh.
My children are mixed-race (dual heritage was the preferred term when I was doing statistics on school-attainment c. 2000). My son would probably have been well-advised not to walk round London with a back-pack in 2007, after the 7/7 bombings, but he would pass as Spanish in Spain - and probably across most of Europe, having caucasian features, i.e. he looks European (but so did the Spanish man shot by police in a tube station after the bombings!). DD much fairer and passes easily for Italian - I have passed as North Indian to the extent of being addressed in Urdu (not a word of which I speak) in bus stations etc when in India. I am very fair, though I have brown hair and brown eyes - which coloration appears in the Punjab etc. Dressed in Indian fashion in a salwar kameez and long hair plaited down my back, I am virtually indistinguishable. But I am a white Caucasian.
I thus look at Kamala Harris and she appears to be Mediterranean European - both in colouring and features.

I don't think you can 'identify' as a particular race/colour. This smacks of TWAW-dom - I think it therefore I am it. The reaction to a woman (whose name I forget) identifying as 'black' when she had no discernible black ancestry was not well received, if I remember - so I don't think accepting how people ID is a viable option (and I can imagine the reaction if I turned up at an interview and said 'I identify as black', too). I know the US has race-on-speed, but to call Kamala Harris 'black' is pushing the boundaries beyond reason. She is mixed-race, apparently, but who would know, looking at her?
Also, Caucasian refers to bone-structure, not colour. For example Somalis and Ethiopians are both Caucasian - they are not white. Spaniards are also Caucasians and Spaniards vary from dark hair, olive/swarthy skin tones and brown eyes to fair-haired, blue-eyed with either olive or beige ('white') skin tones (think Catherine of Aragon).

BrigadierEtienneGerard · 12/09/2024 09:13

Yanks' views on race and what makes a person "black" are peculiar. Very peculiar.

Littlegirll · 12/09/2024 09:18

BellesAndGraces · 11/09/2024 22:53

Think you should let Barack Obama know that he’s not a black man after all. It seems as though he has been misidentifying himself his whole life. How lucky for him and many others that you’re here to correct them.

He's mixed race with black heritage. I think he's half black. So many Mumsnet people triggered by the fact that mixed race people exist and those people are two races, not one. If you're half or a quarter of a different race then you'll almost likely identify as two races.

ThisOchreLemur · 12/09/2024 09:21

BurbageBrook · 11/09/2024 16:16

Her father is Black Jamaican and this takes two seconds to Google.

This.

ThisOchreLemur · 12/09/2024 09:22

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 09:08

My GDD's BF is Welsh. I have met him only once. He is olive-skinned in a Mediterranian/North Africa fashion, with black hair and dark brown eyes. Typically Welsh, and how the Romans described the Silurii, the tribe they found in West Britannia. Undoubtedly he is white, and it is unlikely he has any other ancestry but Welsh.
My children are mixed-race (dual heritage was the preferred term when I was doing statistics on school-attainment c. 2000). My son would probably have been well-advised not to walk round London with a back-pack in 2007, after the 7/7 bombings, but he would pass as Spanish in Spain - and probably across most of Europe, having caucasian features, i.e. he looks European (but so did the Spanish man shot by police in a tube station after the bombings!). DD much fairer and passes easily for Italian - I have passed as North Indian to the extent of being addressed in Urdu (not a word of which I speak) in bus stations etc when in India. I am very fair, though I have brown hair and brown eyes - which coloration appears in the Punjab etc. Dressed in Indian fashion in a salwar kameez and long hair plaited down my back, I am virtually indistinguishable. But I am a white Caucasian.
I thus look at Kamala Harris and she appears to be Mediterranean European - both in colouring and features.

I don't think you can 'identify' as a particular race/colour. This smacks of TWAW-dom - I think it therefore I am it. The reaction to a woman (whose name I forget) identifying as 'black' when she had no discernible black ancestry was not well received, if I remember - so I don't think accepting how people ID is a viable option (and I can imagine the reaction if I turned up at an interview and said 'I identify as black', too). I know the US has race-on-speed, but to call Kamala Harris 'black' is pushing the boundaries beyond reason. She is mixed-race, apparently, but who would know, looking at her?
Also, Caucasian refers to bone-structure, not colour. For example Somalis and Ethiopians are both Caucasian - they are not white. Spaniards are also Caucasians and Spaniards vary from dark hair, olive/swarthy skin tones and brown eyes to fair-haired, blue-eyed with either olive or beige ('white') skin tones (think Catherine of Aragon).

"but so did the Spanish man shot by police in a tube station after the bombings!)" I thought he was brazilian..

Dotjones · 12/09/2024 09:24

Because she is? Remember until fairly recently (1960s) it was illegal for white people to marry black people in some states. The way it was defined was if you had any black blood in you, you were black. Some people "passed for white" - they looked white, they didn't correct people when they were mistaken for being white - but legally they were still black. It didn't matter how far back you went, if any of your traceable ancestors were black, so were you.

hollyhockfield · 12/09/2024 09:24

Littlegirll · 12/09/2024 09:18

He's mixed race with black heritage. I think he's half black. So many Mumsnet people triggered by the fact that mixed race people exist and those people are two races, not one. If you're half or a quarter of a different race then you'll almost likely identify as two races.

If you go through life being treated like a black person, then you’re a black person in every way that matters. Obviously he knows and everyone knows his mother was white. The fact that that’s not what people focus on is kind of the whole point here. Being black in America trumps (no pun intended) anything else.

DataColour · 12/09/2024 09:26

But she's half Black technically. I don't get it either OP. She's half Asian too!

I have mixed raced, half White half Asian DCs and they would never call themselves fully either of those. They'd say they are mixed race.

1dayatatime · 12/09/2024 09:27

BurbageBrook · 11/09/2024 16:15

Her father is Black, her mother is Indian. Being mixed race with a Black parent means you are Black. See also Obama. Obama's mother is white and his father was Black.

I must admit I never quite understood this logic.

If one parent is 100% black and the other is 100% white and the child is 50% black and 50% white (for example Barack Obama) then why is the child always seen as black.

Surely the child is as much white as it is black? Or is being seen or identifying as black seen as preferable or advantageous?

BurbageBrook · 12/09/2024 09:33

@1dayatatime tired of answering this faux naive question. Read back through the thread or Google it.

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 12/09/2024 09:37

I have a mixed race child. Ethnic identities are complex. I would not presume to tell any mixed race person how they should describe their heritage because it is a very personal thing. If Kamala Harris wishes to describe herself as a black woman, then I will respect that choice. If another mixed race person chooses to describe their ethnicity differently, I will respect that too.

knitnerd90 · 12/09/2024 09:37

americans are "obsessed" with race because it's so historically important here.

kamala does identify as both Black and Indian, though more so Black, but she's treated as Black. Will be no matter how she identifies. And she went to a historically Black university which is an important social bond in the USA.

worth noting that children of Asian/white marriages in the US are more likely to identify as mixed. Many Indigenous/Native people are actually mixed (for example, Deb Haaland, the secretary of the interior, has a Laguna Pueblo mother and a Norwegian-American father) but identify as members of their tribe, if they were raised with knowledge of their tribal identity. That has complex history behind it.

Latino people are racially/ethnically mixed and diverse. They don't have the same unifying experience that Black people have (and even there, recent African immigrants do have different experiences, but aren't always treated that way). They're often treated as a single group but Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, Venezuelans are all different.

hollyhockfield · 12/09/2024 09:40

DataColour · 12/09/2024 09:26

But she's half Black technically. I don't get it either OP. She's half Asian too!

I have mixed raced, half White half Asian DCs and they would never call themselves fully either of those. They'd say they are mixed race.

But she herself does acknowledge that she is both Black and Indian. As for why one is stated more prominently than the other, that has been explained in this thread. If you look at it without considering American history and culture then yes it seems illogical but everything is filtered through that lens.

BellesAndGraces · 12/09/2024 11:54

MrsBennetsPoorNerves · 12/09/2024 09:37

I have a mixed race child. Ethnic identities are complex. I would not presume to tell any mixed race person how they should describe their heritage because it is a very personal thing. If Kamala Harris wishes to describe herself as a black woman, then I will respect that choice. If another mixed race person chooses to describe their ethnicity differently, I will respect that too.

Quite. I’m “triggered” by the suggestion that a mixed race person has to be told how to identify themselves, particularly as this approach negates black history in particular.

How a person chooses to identify themselves does not negate their DNA or the answers they put on a census as identity is not biological. I’m sure Barack Obama ticks the mixed race box on application forms (because that is what he is) but he describes himself as a black man because, to use his words, that is what the world sees when they look at him. I understand his reasoning and respect how he chooses to identify himself.

I think the suggestion that someone is “half”
something is also very offensive. I too am a parent of a mixed race child - she is both white and black, not half of anything.

DataColour · 12/09/2024 12:11

I think the suggestion that someone is “half”
something is also very offensive. I too am a parent of a mixed race child - she is both white and black, not half of anything.
That's interesting you saying that as it shows how different people's opinions are on this matter and there's no right or wrong answer and it's up to the person. I personally don't find it at all offensive my DCs being described as half something as I see it in the sense that their DNA is mixed ethnically as half of their genetic information is from a white parent and the other half from an asian parent, but that's coming from a scientific point of view not a racially loaded viewpoint which I don't have, but I appreciate it's different for others. Also, I guess the parents themselves might not be "truly" of one ethnicity so it's all quite complicated again!

BellesAndGraces · 12/09/2024 12:16

@DataColour and I wouldn’t presume to tell you that your feelings on the use of “half” to describe your children is right or wrong, these are all matters of opinion. It’s for your children and mine to decide what’s acceptable to them when describing their racial identity and for the world to respect their feelings.

hollyhockfield · 12/09/2024 12:19

BellesAndGraces · 12/09/2024 11:54

Quite. I’m “triggered” by the suggestion that a mixed race person has to be told how to identify themselves, particularly as this approach negates black history in particular.

How a person chooses to identify themselves does not negate their DNA or the answers they put on a census as identity is not biological. I’m sure Barack Obama ticks the mixed race box on application forms (because that is what he is) but he describes himself as a black man because, to use his words, that is what the world sees when they look at him. I understand his reasoning and respect how he chooses to identify himself.

I think the suggestion that someone is “half”
something is also very offensive. I too am a parent of a mixed race child - she is both white and black, not half of anything.

I understand what you mean with half. I also don’t like the term of mixed race / biracial etc, because there is only one race…ethnicity or ancestry is less othering for me. I’m not going to police how people wish to refer to themselves but surely saying someone is this or that race moves us in the wrong direction? And I do say this as someone of two ethnicities so I’m not speaking as a hypothetical.

Vior · 12/09/2024 12:28

BellesAndGraces · 12/09/2024 11:54

Quite. I’m “triggered” by the suggestion that a mixed race person has to be told how to identify themselves, particularly as this approach negates black history in particular.

How a person chooses to identify themselves does not negate their DNA or the answers they put on a census as identity is not biological. I’m sure Barack Obama ticks the mixed race box on application forms (because that is what he is) but he describes himself as a black man because, to use his words, that is what the world sees when they look at him. I understand his reasoning and respect how he chooses to identify himself.

I think the suggestion that someone is “half”
something is also very offensive. I too am a parent of a mixed race child - she is both white and black, not half of anything.

Can I clarify I am not telling a mixed person how they can and can not identify. If you read my original post you will see my primary fascination came from the fact that OTHERS described Kamala as a black woman. In fact, other black women primarily. I was curious as to why this would be the case.

OP posts:
Shesshinysheila · 12/09/2024 12:33

Id also add as someone with mixed heritage it's pretty shit to not really belong to any group.
I look sort of whitish (brown) or maybe ambiguous. Not many people seem to think I'm part black - interestingly the only people who seem to in the UK are black themselves - so I don't really go though life experiencing the world in the same way as someone who is black. So I feel like a fraud. But then I'm not actually white either, even though my family who raised me are. In fact the only time I ever really feel like I belong to a "group" is when I'm staying with my VERY ethnically diverse side of the family back in my (black) parent's home country of Jamaica. But outside of family, I don't actually fit in there either. In fact my aunt got a torrent of abuse from neighbours for having "white" family staying with them when I was there for an extended time a few years back.
My absolute pet hate is the stupid tick boxes on forms where you have to decide. I refuse to fill them in.

Birdscratch · 12/09/2024 12:38

You’re using ‘English’ to mean white.

Grammarnut · 12/09/2024 12:52

Tandora · 11/09/2024 19:01

Because she is a black woman.

She is not black. Unless you are invoking the infamous 'one drop' rule - which is racist (and probably applies to 100% of the planet's population).

Sartre · 12/09/2024 12:53

She is black and Indian and refers to herself as black. Mixed heritage people can choose which race they prefer to associate with and I believe she has chosen black.

TreadSoftlyOnMyDreams · 12/09/2024 12:56

I think it's primarily because she identifies herself as Black but does often describe herself as a Woman of Colour and African/American & African/Asian in the same breath. Because she is all of those things and Trumps suggest that she flips it to suit her audience is insulting to all the communities she represents and Kamala herself.
https://www.reuters.com/fact-check/kamala-harris-has-long-identified-black-contrary-trump-claim-2024-08-01/
Mostly because it's simple and since she uses it herself I suspect the media will go with whatever rolls of the tongue and uses the least words

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