Only the middle class and above think that Class isn't a thing any more.

[FindingMeno]

Just that really.
If you're working class it's as plain as the nose on your face.

It’s the shooting part, not the dog part!

Oh ok no problem, where do you think you’re pheasant or grouse comes from for Christmas or supper? Unless of course one is vegetarian.

I am gobsmacked that anyone lives like that ( ?gun dogs- really?) in 2024.
Really? Why? It's a lifestyle that many country people live.

So yes then 😄

It's a mix of factors, which, combined in different ways, define someone's class. Quality of opportunity, job, income, cultural life (past and present), housing, education, parents' professions, health and life expectancy... lots of different things. I am solidly lower middle class. Two degrees, semi-professional job, home-owner. I have one middle class parent and one working class parent. They're from different worlds. And no longer together, which may or may not be related. I am acutely aware of class. It colours so much of British life. Only an absolute fool would say otherwise.

I think @merrymaryquitecontrary knew that.

No. It's just that most people don't care.

Genuine question: Would you say that you are still working class, despite your current circumstances?

I ask because I reckon people's class doesn't tend to change, regardless of how well they do in life. This may be true for you, as it is for me, whereas your children grow up middle class and thus are middle class.

As an example of this, you could remove all of Jacob Rees-Mogg's money, stick him in a London bedsit and make him sell the Big Issue on street corners, and he will still be upper class.

Conversely, you can make people like Liam Gallagher and Wayne Rooney multi-millionaires but they are still working class.

You had a point? 😆

You are dead right. It’s funny to read all the accidentally self-exposing denials in this thread. I don’t think middle-class people mean it badly. They have no reason to notice class because it doesn’t harm them.

Yes I’d say I’m still working class but I’m saying it hasn’t held me back so it doesn’t really matter what class I am.

Completely agree, but how can I tell who is lower middle or upper class?

@Hairyesterdaygonetoday "You are dead right. It’s funny to read all the accidentally self-exposing denials in this thread. I don’t think middle-class people mean it badly. They have no reason to notice class because it doesn’t harm them."

There are so many things like the "who signs the passport form" that if you haven't experienced, either personally or through others completely pass you by. Like the politicians who say "it's easy to live on a budget-just shop around 10 shops to find the cheapest stuff, then cook it for 3 hours to make a delicious gruel...."

Yes!

Deep down everyone sees colour. People say they don't as a way of saying that someone's colour doesn't matter to them.

People NEED to see colour. Otherwise we are not recognising and acknowledging the issues that people of colour have to deal with!

The classless society trope is just tory propoganda. It is only the middle classes who maintain that class does not matter. If you come from an estate in a deprived area and didn't go to school that often it matters.

I do wonder how long Angela Raynor's "working class credentials" will last now that Labour has robbed pensioners of their winter fuel allowance and (if you believe the news reports) they're going to do the same to single/widowed people by taking away their council tax reduction.

And this is why Curlew Kate's analogy is so good. Everyone sees and notices class signifiers, even when they pretend they don't.

Precisely.

I come from a family where I'm the only sibling (out of 7) that works. Think stay at home mums (disabled child), long term unemployed (no qualifications, one zero hours job after the next), poor mental health (childhood issues).
My friendship group from school all have the same background.
I'm the only one from school and amongst family friends that can sign passports so I get all the requests. Pretty sure the Passport Office must think I take a commission as I do so many.
I went to uni, had to drop out as I had no idea how to navigate a degree course, had no one to help guide me through things like applying for finance, finding accommodation, I couldn't even get a guarantor for my rented room.
But I'm now in a thoroughly middle class profession, surrounded by those who take their children skiing, have homes in the cotswolds. I'm not one of 'them' and never will be. The topic always comes up of buying a property, those my age are in family houses. I rent a council flat. Some often just can't compute that my parents weren't able to just gift me £25,000 for a deposit or that I spend most of my single income wages on living when they have joint income, mum and dad etc.

What are class signifiers though.

My Mum grew up in an overcrowded unheated council house to a single mum of 5 who was a cleaner, had to leave school at 15 as her mum couldnt afford to support her, is only one of her siblings who has never had any issues with police. But was and is always immaculately presented, very well spoken, high focus on hard work, well read, good manners. She worked in low paid job once we were old enough to be left. What class would she be? I think anyone would look at her and assume middle class, but she would be in most people's definitions be working class? I don't think it's always as easy as many on here seem to think it is, for assumptions to be made about class just by looking at someone or even speaking with them. And therefore it's not always true to say someone would be discrimated against because of their class, because it's not always obvious what that is in the first place.

@Bushmillsbabe
You don't have to answer these, but here's a few markers:

Do you say Red Sauce or Ketchup?

Napkin or Serviette?

Toilet or loo?

When you didn't hear, do you say pardon, sorry or something else? What about if you burp?

Do you care which piece of cutlery gets used for what in a meal?

How do you thank people?

Is it a lounge, living room or sitting room and does it contain a sofa or settee?

What is your evening meal called and what is the final course called?

Is your progenatrix mother, mummy, ma, or mum (and how often do you drop obscure latin terms into what you say?)

That's just a few linguistic markers. There are also loads connected with taste in decor, furniture, books, music, cultural entertainment, how milestones are celebrated etc etc. And whilst many people will ernestly protest that none of these matter, people still clock them and notice if someone is using options on any of these that they don't expect.

But ‘immaculately presented’ can cover a lot of different types of self-presentation and social class, as does ‘well-spoken’ and ‘good manners’.

A certain kind of very painstaking self-presentation suggests ‘I’m trying to pass’, for instance. My own mother, from a very poor, dysfunctional, rural household, will simply never let anyone see her in any way dishevelled or slightly grubby, even in situations, like a muddy walk, where it’s normal to have muddy boots or trouser hems, because it reminds her of being judged as poor in childhood.

She was baffled and slightly disapproving when she came with me to visit a friend of mine in the Cotswolds — the house is a small gorgeous 17thc manor house, so she’d decided my friend must be ‘posh’ on approach (which is true, I’d call her ‘boho UMC’), but couldn’t believe afterwards that we hadn’t been ‘asked into the good room’, but had tea in the untidy kitchen with socks and pants drying over the Aga, kids’ art projects on the table, that my friend was wearing gardening clothes, and that the back garden wasn’t neatly mown. Because she would have scoured the house, dressed up, used the ‘good room’ etc.

Her own mother (who married down) half-starved the children so she could afford to dress them ‘respectably’, though they were dirt-poor, and everyone knew it.

My female ILs, who are WC, have ‘posh phone/restaurant voices’ .

Personally, I have never heard of ketchup.🤣

Oh, I often have ketchup at supper. On my grouse 😆

I grew up MC and it’s only negatively affected once in my life*, and it’s only now I’m realising just how much of a positive impact being MC has had on me.

I think in terms of social mobility, you can become MC if you’re born WC, but if you’re born MC you can’t become WC, no matter what you end up doing career wise. I first came to realise this after coming across Ann Russell on TikTok. She went to a private school but has spent the majority of her working life as cleaner. She still identifies as MC. I too went to a private school but have only ever done menial jobs, yet I still identify as MC. I acknowledge the opportunities I had throughout my childhood and the connections I made still have a positive impact on me even now.

*For sixth form I decided to go to a community college for a bit of ‘life experience’. One of our tutors incorrectly told the class that I’d been to a more prestigious private school than the one I went to, and from then on everyone treated me differently and I was dismissed as “the posh bird”.