Only the middle class and above think that Class isn't a thing any more.

[FindingMeno]

Just that really.
If you're working class it's as plain as the nose on your face.

Also agree. I come from a poor working class background but I would no longer describe myself as WC, the very idea is daft. I am, however, very aware that my life experiences and outlook, because of my WC upbringing have been very different from my friends born into middle class lives. Its very noticeable to me.

Your OP is very brief - you don't explain in detail in what way you are seeing or experiencing class-discrimination. Are you talking about inequality of wealth or opportunity, or people's accents etc? I do agree that class consciousness is a thing in every human society. It's absolutely NOT just a British thing, as some people are fond of asserting.

I'm class-conscious - I'm aware that people speak differently, have different attitudes to things, different life experiences - especially in education - but I don't think I'm a snob. I don't judge people favourably or unfavourably because of their social background.. I'm not a social snob - I come from a working class background myself. But I do shun people who are 'ignorant and proud of it' - but you find those in all walks of life.

Education used to be the key to social mobility in this country but it's been less effective in the last few decades. I think that's because of the demise of grammar schools, which, while they had some disadvantages, helped so many working class children to get to university and into professional careers. The well-off middle classes (and there a plenty who aren't well off!) have fled to private schools whereas they once would have been happy with a grammar school. This point of view is very unpopular because inclusivity is now seen as more important than pretty much everything else, but I think it's the 'elephant in the room' when the question about the fall in social mobility comes up.

The other factor (from an educational pov) is the widening of access to university education. I went on a full grant, when only 10% of youngsters went to university. You can't have grants when 50% are expected to go, and so much has resulted from that: dud courses, cynically run by universities, which offer youngsters very little chance of real employment opportunities; more graduates than the market can use, leading to all kinds of shenanigans in recruitment - particularly the importance of 'internships' which the middle classes, and especially those around London, are best able to arrange for their children - and much more! So for many young people, the promise of a university degree hasn't been the door to high earning potential and social mobility that they might have hoped.

Too many folks are still using the old Victorian outlooks on “Class”. Things have moved on vastly in the last century, and there are now different groups identified, and how people can move from one strata to another.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/special/2013/newsspec_5093/index.stm

What does remain though, is the country’s awful categorisation of humanity, and it holds back so many. I would never defer to anyone who hasn’t earned my respect, regardless of anything like wealth, birth, what they have contributed towards making our country and society a better place to live in. There are geniuses born in so called working class families, and complete waste of space humanoids that have never done much to progress our World. Polite indifference to anyone “titled”, complete scorn for super rich air brains…..

The above link is a bit dated, but it does give a better idea of how uk population is defined in the 21st century

Of course. And most of the middle class are kidding themselves it doesn't exist.

Can you explain which resources and cultural capital a poor middle class person has better access too, and whether you believe a person is born a certain class and that's it?

I would also be interested in a definition of working class and of middle class?

Yes, people evaluate others based on their behaviour, but I don't think we can always call this discrimination. The legal definition of discrimination is that it is linked to something you cannot change - gender, race, disability, sexual orientation.

@coffeecantata
" the demise of grammar schools, which, while they had some disadvantages, helped so many working class children to get to university and into professional careers. The well-off middle classes (and there a plenty who aren't well off!) have fled to private schools whereas they once would have been happy with a grammar school."

I live in a fully selective county and 10% of kids at the grammar school my DD wants to go to came there from private schools and their FSM % is 6% compared to an average of 28% at non selective schools in the county.

Grammars do not help low earning working class families.

That's the bit I do hate, people trying to hide rather than be proud of where they come from.

The new pensions secretary is a prime example. She harps on about helping the poor/working class pretending to be very poor herself, whilst living in a multi million pound house, with 'staff' and a couple of other homes, and taking money away from people who are genuinely struggling, changing her accent depending on the audience. I knew her via an antenatal group and was so shocked to hear her speak on TV vs how she speaks in real life. Her very posh accent suddenly disappeared!

@CoffeeCantata
I think that's because of the demise of grammar schools, which, while they had some disadvantages, helped so many working class children to get to university and into professional careers"

They didn't actually help many. And those working class people who did "make it" via the grammar school system were still looked down on by middle class people.

I do hope this thread doesn't turn into another elegiac "oh, it would all be all right if we had more grammar schools" thread!

I think that is true - Grayson Perry did some work around this - the middle class are the most class conscious and insecure whereas both working class and upper class people are more comfortable with their position. I think this is why MC people are so bemused by WC people stating they are WC - MC would not do that because of the self consciousness and the idea that being MC is something to aspire to. In the US it is quite different and MC is not aspirational it is just middle earning l

Can you explain which resources and cultural capital a poor middle class person has better access too

@Bushmillsbabe (love the area!) I know this question wasn't aimed at me, but my family are the prime example. I think I grew up MC (although on the second page a poster firmly stated I'm WC ) went to grammar school, parents owned our home, horses etc. I am post grad educated from a higher ranked red brick. However, my career ended when I had to become a full time carer for my disabled dc, and I'm now on UC. My dc were FSM, so on paper we are are in poverty. My dc went to a grammar school, they've been to 10+ countries over 3 continents, they also went to red brick unis to read very competitive courses. I knew doctors/lawyers to get them vital work experience for their applications. I knew how to navigate the UCAS system and what constitutes a good personal statement and what doesn't (schools can be really shocking in this respect). I know my dc will never go hungry/homeless as my parents would financially assist if necessary. They never have felt 'less than' or lacking in confidence to apply for opportunities, or that 'isn't for people like us'. That is all down to the advantages that come with my background.

Wow, that just sounds as if you ate a couple of copies of the Daily Mail and threw them straight up again.

If you are aware what it means in the context it was written, why did you write this?

merrymaryquitecontrary · Today 07:08
What does this mean? In what way has your MC position been 'aching?'

Thank you for your reasoned and relevant contribution to this discussion.

And for proving my point.

👏👏👏

No its not class that holds you back in life. The biggest factor is your parents rich or poor.

and thats down to the luck of the draw.

I'm very aware of what 'achingly' means. "Achingly middle class" followed by a comparison with being Black was not at all clear to me, nor do I think it's remotely comparable. If you look on the education threads, there are posters who genuinely believe that the middle class are discriminated against (in favour of the WC, you tend to see this a lot in Oxbridge threads) and I thought it could be this sort of reference. The poster did clarify what she meant, and whilst I still wouldn't conflate the two, it's not an issue. There was a recent thread about the increase in Eton fees from £50k to £60k and one poster said it's only going to punish the poor. I feel like I'm in a parallel universe sometimes!

You didn’t ask about the comparison to colour. You picked up on the word aching, which is what I explained and you then said you understood???

Even in 2024 Britain, I still don't think that's true! Other countries maybe but not Britain. I think even things like an accent are relevant to a Brit and they make many assumptions about your background. Somewhere like the US, I wouldn't say that is relevant but I'm not stating this as fact as I really don't have any connections to the US. I have a West London accent and I've been told by some that I sound 'posh', I don't think so I just think I have a West London accent (and the people telling me I'm posh haven't really heard that London accent, as most people associate the cockney accent with London) and I don't live there anymore so people again just have a different accent in this part of the south east.

Oh sorry, I think I may have read that and interpreted it as you suggesting 'wealth' is more of a determining factor to outcomes in life but now I have re-read it do you mean that parents are, whether rich or poor?

It was the poster's juxtaposition of 'achingly MC' alongside people saying they don't see race in a Black person. I'm not sure why you don't understand why that might be viewed as problematic, or at the very least questionable. And you didn't explain what it meant, you just informed me that I was obviously WC because I didn't understand .

I’m from a working class background and have regional accent so I guess I’m working class. However I was clever at school, first class degree at university, gained a chartered qualification in a middle class job, very financially comfortable now, mortgage paid off. My kids I suppose live a middle class lifestyle. I don’t think being working class has held me back at all.

You don’t know what see as problematic or not. I haven’t commented on what that poster wrote. Our conversation has been entirely based on your not understanding what “achingly middle class” meant. No mention of black in either your comment or the one I responded to. 10/10 on your attempt to turn this around though. I see you 👌

@StormingNorman @merrymaryquitecontrary

I am here, you know! And I have reframed my post definitely once -maybe twice.....

I absolutely agree that your parents are the biggest indicator or success or not. If you've had a nice easy path to university and a decent career then you're already streets ahead of those of us dealing with poverty, being a young carer, abuse, parents with learning difficulties and criminal records etc. And that's just what I was dealing with as a child! 🙄😂

@CurlewKate you clarified what you meant and I don't have issue with it, hence I haven't tagged you. For some very odd reason Storming is taking umbrage.