Only the middle class and above think that Class isn't a thing any more.

[FindingMeno]

Just that really.
If you're working class it's as plain as the nose on your face.

You can’t change your class. I’m not talking about your descendants but you as a person, in your life.

Class isn’t so much about money or what job you have. It’s about upbringing, connections, thoughts, and opportunities.

Colleen Rooney is very wealthy but she will always be working class.

Kate, Princess of Wales, could lose her status and live on a council estate on benefits, but she will always be middle class.

Class is not dependent on money or job title, it is deeply ingrained and can’t be changed in you.

If you are working class and do well in life then there is a possibility that the descendants you have will start to lead a middle class lifestyle in time, but like I said, class is very much about upbringing, connections, thoughts, and opportunities and those sort of things ‘stay’ in their classes.

ETA: this is why class is most unfair on the working class because it does create a barrier in many parts of life. Whether people like it or not class is absolutely alive and kicking in the country.

If anyone could explain the difference to me between 'class' and 'having access to more resources, money and cultural capital' I'd be very grateful.

I think a lot of people confuse working class with low earning. DH has a lot of friends who are electricians, plumbers, painter and decorators, mechanics etc who all earn well over the average and a lot of them work for themselves and dodge a lot of tax too.

Very plain to me and I am certainly middle class. I don't know who says it is not a thing - if someone does they are probably gas lighting the other person!

Foreigners do not go on about class, or care.

Nor do the vast majority of Brits.

If you have a mixture of influences in your life and dont 'stay in your lane' then its not a thing.

Of course you aren’t BU.

Just look at the concerns about mass immigration. Leafy suburb dwellers with private health insurance and kids in private schools, or schools where most kids speak English and pupils actually learn, dismissing concerns of the lower paid living in less attractive areas as racism. Because they don’t experience not being able to get a GP appointment, a school place, or a house to rent. And when your kid gets a place at school, they can’t get a decent education because the teacher has to focus on pupils who don’t speak English. And the fear when you hear your child’s friend has been stabbed on the estate.

People well off enough to arrange childcare or WFH calling those who didn’t like schools to close ‘granny killers’, completely dismissing genuine concerns of those who couldn’t WFH and didn’t have any means to afford childcare, or who relied on free school meals.

These are inconvenient facts conveniently dismissed by those with money who only care about feeling good about themselves.

It’s called living in a la la land where money can afford people the luxury of not having to deal with everyone else’s reality. Which is classist in itself. And then there is mass hysteria because the ‘deplorables’ have voted for Brexit, etc.

I also think the woke version of anti racism is founded on classism: non-white people and immigrants are helpless victims and deserve our compassion, just like the poor did in the Victorian era. But only if they’re morally pure, that is subscribe to our values and opinions. The vitriol towards BAME people who don’t subscribe to the woke ideology is not only racist, is also classist in the ‘get back in your lane’ kind of way. At the very least, they will be patronised as ‘uneducated’.

But this isnt class, its shit but its poverty and lack of privilege.

Since you can be working class and rich, its not the right definition and just leads to stereotyping of the 3 classes that doesnt help providing resources to those that need it.

I think you really become aware of it actually when you have kids of university age. You realise university / student finance / student housing are really quite elitist. And it’s ok to think that society has abolished a class system , but when you see so how so many students don’t have to work during uni, have their parents buy them a house as an investment etc, you really feel the disparity in society, and realise that educational options for working class kids are very curtailed.
It feels worse than ever to me in that respect.

I'm well aware of what it means, thanks. It sounds awfully Hyacinth Bucket though, and to me it's something that someone truly middle class wouldn't say.

@CurlewKate I see where you were trying to come from re the Black/class, but I still don't feel it's a fair comparison. Being Black is something you can't change, it's noticeable a mile away (and the associated profiling/stereotyping/discrimination happens instantly as a result) and it's not contested. Class is contingent upon a place/time, and it's very definition isn't agreed upon. You only have to read the thirty million threads on here on what makes a person working/middle/upper class to see that the lines can be very blurred. So no, I don't agree that 'it's as clear as the nose on your face'. I know many doctors/solicitors who claim they are very working class, and not everyone would agree with that. Waits for posters to say they can spot a working class person a mile away. The very definition (or people's perception of what that means) of working class has changed over time. It is often used in policy to describe those in poverty, unemployed with chaotic home lives and great deprivation, whereas many people would disagree. This group more recently have been categorized as the underclass, but that isn't going to work on paper, for obvious reasons.

@FinallyHere "If anyone could explain the difference to me between 'class' and 'having access to more resources, money and cultural capital' I'd be very grateful."

There is little difference. Money is less significant, though. A working class person can have plenty of money but very little access to resources and cultural capital. That's rather the point. Functioning in society is easier for middle class people.

What makes people think they are of any class though?
What makes people think you re of any class?

Unfortunately I've never understood the class system. My mum and dad came from working class, but ended up being rich. I went to school with upper class people. I've only ever been able to classify them because other people have said "they are upper class" but what is the actual definition?

I guess that must mean I'm middleclass as I don't understand class.

Though what is preventing access for the wealthy working-class person is an interesting thought in itself.

Some of the blockages are easier to remove than others. Anyone who can afford to can go to the opera, but social capital is harder to acquire, depending on how the working-class person in question accrued their wealth.

Like the difference between me trying to find work experience when I was at school and what will likely be my child's experience when he's that age -- the only adults I knew were cleaners, binmen, mechanics, delivery drivers, childminders etc. DS will be able to access potential placements in all kind of professional environments, and has grown up knowing people who do anything from taxi driving to art resoration, directing opera, writing cookbooks to cardio surgery.

Has anyone else noticed cultural or class appropriation by MC of WC? For example in the Civil Service, where senior mandarins have to sign up to social mobility pledges and race to shed any UMC markers, start vocally supporting a football team and dropping their (metaphorical) aitches? Parents worried their children are less likely to get into Oxbridge finding ways to suggest deprivation in UCAS forms, the roll call of humble ancestors who would previously have been airbrushed out, now cited to refute accusations of priviledge? Now that certain opportunities are being directed at less advantaged young people for social mobility purposes, and class has become a contested concept, it's like people want to enjoy the fruits of higher class but cos play lower class in order to scoop up any affirmative action goodies. An example from my own experience- the Cambridge-educated DD of a Judge and a hospital consultant applying for Civil Service internship described as the child of an 'NHS worker'.
So to answer the original post, I don't think it's a question of MC and above being unaware of class, more being unaware of their priviledge whilst increasingly alarmed that their class is under fire, so pretending it doesn't exist.
And then at the top of the pyramid are those who confidently know what their class is, so don't need to keep obsessing about it.

I very much have traits of both.

Could we have a list of these traits please, under the class they are supposed to fall under?

Because you’re the product of wealthy parents you don’t see or experience the discrimination so you’re blind to your own privilege.

In what way, dear?

But is having wealth about being a certain class? What about footballers, who have millions, but are rarely considered middle class?

I also agree that it seems odd to compare race/ disability discrimination to class. One is part of you and not changeable, and one can definitely be changed.

My mum grew up with a single mum who was a cleaner in an over crowded council house, had to leave school at 15 due to her family needing her to earn. But she was very aspirational for us, pushed us to work hard at school, we got scholarships to private schools and did well, and I would I think under most people's definitions be pretty middle class. My mum presents as very well spoken, very classy and well mannered and none of my friends when I was young believed me when I explained her background. My Dad dropped me at school in his expensive company car (he too had a very tough childhood and thrown out of home, and worked his way out if poverty on his own merit) and is very at home among politicians, high level business people etc, so again, no one would know where he came from by looking at him/talking to him.

Many ways, mostly to do with lack of opportunity.
Dear.

I agree with this.

Its true that if you are not aware of your own class background you have never had to feel anxious about it and therefore are middle class and higher.

But I do think that class is increasingly decoupled from financial status nowadays which muddies the waters. A lot of people who identify as working class are actually wealthier than people in traditionally middle class or white collar occupations. A successful self employed plumber could comfortably earn four times what a primary school teacher or an admin assistant earns.

What frustrates me a bit is the tendency for people who come from working class backgrounds to insist that their working class essence transcends there current financial status in perpetuity as if there was no social mobility whatsoever. I have an old friend whose parents were working class (council house, dad was a builder) who is now a corporate lawyer paid comfortably over £150 pa with two homes who describes herself as “working class”. I don’t really buy this.

If you have come from working class roots and made a shit ton of money you can still say you are from a working class background. I don’t think you can reasonably describe yourself as working class yourself. Your kids sure as hell wouldn’t be working class.

@Bushmillsbabe "I also agree that it seems odd to compare race/ disability discrimination to class. One is part of you and not changeable, and one can definitely be changed"

It's me not being understood/not making myself clear here. My point was that when white people say "Oh, I don't see colour" what they are really saying is that they don't acknowledge discrimination because they don't think that they discriminate. Despite living in a society that does. The same applies to middle class people saying that they don't think that the class system exists because they live in a society which benefits, rather than disbenefits them. And it isn't about money. Money can help, of course. But a poor middle class person has easier access to resources and cultural capital than a well off working class person.