Identity Cards: yes or no?

[Papyrophile]

Gerard Darminin, French Home Secretary equivalent, has said that the UK is making itself a migrant target because we have no national officially issued ID card proving entitlement.

I, a very ordinary citizen, already have an NHS number issued at birth, and a National Insurance number sent to me at 16, neither of which has changed. I also have a passport number, due for renewal next year, a driver's license and a Government Gateway number for my occasional exchanges with officialdom.

Why would anyone who has nothing to hide from the authorities prefer not to hold an official proof of identity?

Precisely.

It would be used against people who are 'doing things right' or just struggling generally.

And criminals would be fine cos they'd just fake or scam and put all this shit onto some innocents record, which they wouldn't be able to remove or would end up in a Kafkaesque nightmare trying to. Know someone vulnerable unable to navigate through removing this? Great perfect mark.

A whole mid morning consumers affairs TV series beckons. Get your pitches in now for presenter.

The ID card scheme you mention here wouldn't make it simple to check whether someone was entitled to free NHS care.

It wouldn't say whether the British recipient was ordinarily resident or not. For that, you need proof of residence. Having an ID card that was issued at some point in your life doesn't prove that. Let's say they have to be renewed eg every 10 years for an adult, which would be in line with passports and provisional licences. A lot can happen in a decade. You'd have to also have a process for recording whether an ID card holder was still ordinarily resident in the UK. Which is what has to happen now already.

Additionally, not being a UK citizen doesn't mean a person isn't entitled to free NHS care. They might be a migrant who's paid the Immigration Health Surcharge, for example, a refugee, or a visitor from a country the UK has a reciprocal healthcare agreement with. These individuals would all have documentation that would prove their entitlement already, so an ID card would serve no additional purpose and would only serve to cost money.

People who want ID cards on these grounds are being over optimistic about what they could actually achieve.

Because it's 'a magic solution'. Beware the political magic bullet. They don't exist.

There's literally a book about the cultural instinct of the British which warns us of our desire to use power in this way. It's called 1984.

This exactly.

It was scandalous how quickly anti terrorism laws were abused.

Those wanting an ID card to limit migration or access to services - it won't work.
As pp stated it's proof of residency thats key to eg be eligible for NHS services.
I know of people who have moved to Australia and come back for nhs treatment as they still have access to family addresses and have an nhs number.
(This did used to be letters and numbers - I still have my original card).

U.K. isn't a target country due to lack if ID cards. It's a target because of English. It is a global language and our country's history is intertwined with so many others. It has always been a draw and will continue to be.

Legal routes are important. The life of an asylum seeker is unstable , insecure (by design) and people are left in limbo for years. Have better processing, reduce the demand for hotels, let these people contribute.

For the people, including the OP, who've said they would like an ID card so it could be definite proof of entitlement to free NHS care, have your minds changed now it's been explained that it wouldn't be?

It was scandalous how quickly anti terrorism laws were abused.

All of which was predicted, by the way.

There was never going to be a huge database with literally everything on it. Even moreso there was never going to be a card with ALL your details on it.

It's a card with your basic personal data on it. That confirms who you are. Governmental agencies can swipe/scan it to access their own databases.

I.e. doctors and paramedics can swipe and access your NHS data via THEIR NHS access/device.

Police can swipe/scan to interrogate THEIR database re criminal records, etc.

It was never going to be the case that, say, border force officials could access your health records or that a paramedic could access your criminal record history.

Yep.

And that's precisely why we should be wary about ID cards.

They weren't introduced in the end - for a reason. That reason hasn't ceased to exist.

ID cards are gateway to another state abuse of power scandal.

Look at who happened with the post office. Now imagine that one steroids.

What you think that data isn't linked and linkable?

It should be linked to where you live. In Belgium, if I have move, I have to inform the local authority who will update my details, after doing a physical check that i live where I say I do. Everything else is then linked to my registered address. The police can't access my medical records, nor the council my taxes.

"It's a card with your basic personal data on it. That confirms who you are. Governmental agencies can swipe/scan it to access their own databases."

They can access that info when you give your name, dob etc.
Another form of ID is unnecessary.

I have dual nationality so have an official citizens "ID" card, which I can also use to travel within Schengen. My DH does not, but he has a Residence Card showing that he has the right to live and work here and to claim medical treatment.

This.

Either they need a big database to do something or existing information to prove your identity is perfectly sufficient.

Why do we need the expense and the risk of ID cards.

Unless it's about more than that and controlling the population.

I still think a wallet-sized (or digital) ID is would be a useful adjunct to everyday life, but I imagine it working along the lines that @Badbadbunny describes. And yes, I think it should be linked to your current residential address, athough I am not sure how this could be made to work and kept updated efficiently IRL.

When I've had to provide proof of address it's had to be a bill or similar from the last six months. An ID card doesn't make this possible.

I think that your original premise re requiring an ID card to reduce immigration or falsely accessing fee services isn't going to work with an ID card.

Other forms of ID are sufficient for most everyday functions.

The only people to gain would be the company that gained the contract to produce them. And I cannot think of a single trusted contractor capable of protecting my data.

Which still won't be proof of ordinary residence in itself.

Because let's say the card gets renewed every 10 years, you last got a new one in 2018 and the local authority came round and did a physical check (lol). Then you move abroad, come back for a holiday with no intention of moving back to live, and need to be admitted to hospital while you're here.

In this situation, you'd still have a valid ID card saying you lived in Basingstoke or whatever. But you wouldn't actually be ordinarily resident in the UK, and therefore you wouldn't be entitled to free NHS inpatient care. The card would only be proof that you were ordinarily resident when you got it in 2018, so there'd still need to be additional checks on top. Just like now.

There's information below about the sort of evidence that's asked for.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/help-for-nhs-to-recover-costs-of-care-from-visitors-and-migrants/settled-purpose-tool

This would still be needed, in order to establish whether someone's ordinarily resident.

Basically, there would need to be some kind of additional process on top of the issuing of ID cards, because NHS entitlement is based on residence as well as being legally allowed to be in the UK. And we have that now. It doesn't always work like it's meant to, but ID cards wouldn't change that.

But there's no proof you are who you say you are, is there?

People can give false names/dates of birth.

Plenty of people have more than one registered identity.

A proper ID scheme would catch those with two or more identities and those using someone else's identity.

Is there a problem with having two names? A married name and a professional name for example?
The NI number links both names anyway so it's not an issue. Feels like a blunt instrument way to solve a non existent problem.

Absolutely no to ID cards from me. I hold a passport so that I can travel, this is my choice.
I hold a driving licence because I choose to drive and it's a requirement when being in charge of a dangerous piece of equipment.

I have the right to anonymity, I don't want to prove who I am to anyone that asks- as long as I am not hurting anyone and following the laws of the country I'm living in, then it's nobody's concern who I am.

ID cards have no bearing on people illegally taking work, that is to do with those that are happy to hire them without proof of work, or checking that it's genuine. I spend half my working life checking rtw and following up on those we don't believe are genuine and preventing the people that hold these from working. There aren't as many of these as you would think, because decent employers do the checks and are looking for fakes and the signs of modern slavery. Those that are not checking now, would also not worry about ID cards, these are unscrupulous employers who need to be found and jailed.

Go after the low lives that use and abuse rather than the victims.

yadah yadah yadah

I recently had to use ID to enter a music event. The only ID they would accept was passport or photographic driving licence. Would you REALLY like to take your passport, which is a very valuable item, to a music event?

Only if you carry one 24/7 and accept the criminal penalty for not doing so.

Isn't that about optional additional forms of ID then rather than a compulsory system to allow you to have the choice.

(I have taken my passport to music events before. I have been to events in other countries which require this. It doesn't bother me because I have somewhere suitable to store my passport).

I haven't read the thread yet, but it is a fact that modern life requires photo ID in a way we just didn't even 10 years ago.

Not everyone can afford or need a passport or a driving licence, so I do think there should be a national photo ID card option as an alternative, which should be at minimal cost. But I would never agree with compulsory ID cards or that it should be compulsory to always carry ID.

You did not "have" to do anything.

You freely chose to attend an event, which presumably made it clear beforehand which forms of ID they would accept. It's then up to you to choose whether or not you find those terms agreeable and attend. You chose to do so.

Compulsory ID carrying is utterly unnecessary, and I'll gladly rot in a prison cell before I'll ever accede to it.