Identity Cards: yes or no?

[Papyrophile]

Gerard Darminin, French Home Secretary equivalent, has said that the UK is making itself a migrant target because we have no national officially issued ID card proving entitlement.

I, a very ordinary citizen, already have an NHS number issued at birth, and a National Insurance number sent to me at 16, neither of which has changed. I also have a passport number, due for renewal next year, a driver's license and a Government Gateway number for my occasional exchanges with officialdom.

Why would anyone who has nothing to hide from the authorities prefer not to hold an official proof of identity?

Not sure how any of this relates to what @littledrummergirl said. She's quite right in what she says about people working illegally, incidentally!

If the UK did have compulsory ID cards, they'd also be valuable just as passports and licences are. They'd be vulnerable to getting lost or nicked just the same.

So the people who have no desire for a smartphone will continue to lead an atypical life.

Just because something is commonplace shouldn't mean that it becomes a necessity. Some people don't own a TV despite the fact they've been perfectly common in UK homes since the middle of the 20th Century. Some people do not have any sort of mobile phone, "smart" or otherwise because they have neither the need nor the want for one.

If life is going to become inviable without personal use of a smartphone, then someone in Government is going to have to provide them free of charge, ensure they are free to use, and figure out some way of enabling people who literally can not operate a device because of disability.

Compulsory ID carrying is utterly unnecessary, and I'll gladly rot in a prison cell before I'll ever accede to it.

Nothing to hide, nothing to fear ...

If life is going to become inviable without personal use of a smartphone, then someone in Government is going to have to provide them free of charge, ensure they are free to use, and figure out some way of enabling people who literally can not operate a device because of disability.

I like the naïve assumption of "have to" there. Successive governments have clearly demonstrated who is at the bottom of their priorities, and it's an almost 100% match with that demographic.

I have no issue with an ID card. We lived in the EU for 5 years and had an ID card which was a bit of a rigmarole to get. You had to visit the commune you were living in, they took all details regarding rights to be there etc. As others have said then the police came round to check that we were living where we said we were and the ID was granted.
You had to carry it wherever you went, but nobody ever asked to see mine.
It was useful as well for registering product guarantees then you were buying white goods and expensive tech, and you could move across Europe only carrying the ID.
It cost if I remember rightly about 15 or 18 Euros, and would have been valid for 10 years.
I don't think you can say that there is any more likelihood of a North African man being stopped and asked to prove his identity there than the stop and search practices that we see here. That is down to institutional racism rather than anything to do with an ID card. If somebody is committing a crime, then again I have no problem with them being asked to show their ID. Where I was , if they didn't have the ID they would be in trouble for that as well as the crime, if they were found guilty of that, but I don't recall the penalties for not carrying it.

I am not sure ID cards will be as effective as the French think. Much as I agree that the unofficial economy is an attraction to those using small boats to cross.

You need to tackle the areas of the economy where such jobs lie.

I have no problem with it and would have one without issue.

All very well for "formal ID" to be a passport or driving licence, but that excludes quite a few people i'd imagine.
Also would be handy for domestic flights not having to cart a passport about.

Anything that requires an active application process and a fee will exclude some people. Most countries in Europe that have ID cards charge, and some of them are more expensive than our provisional driving licences. So there would still be accessibility problems

You also can use a driving licence on a lot of domestic flights now. But anything that's important and official enough to be used when you'd otherwise use a passport will be a similar level of faff to a passport.

Anything that requires an active application process and a fee will exclude some people.

That won't fly for a card that has to be carried 24/7. "Can't be arsed" isn't (yet) a defence in English law. And if they are provided free of charge* there's no excuse.

*"Lost" cards would be an interesting case. But ultimately the taxpayer pays.

National ID cards in France are free for the first issue.
Citizen cards in the UK cost £18 at the moment so i am unsure quite how prohibitive a standard national ID card would be.

A UK passport is 88.50-100
A UK drivers licence - factor in lessons and test before the card is even on the horizon.

Some domestic flights accept drivers licences, but others dont.

I guess if it is the law the you have to pay for it unless you are on benefits in which case the state would provide.
That's the way it worked where I lived in the EU, because it was the law.
It's not really going to work on a voluntary basis, because you wouldn't apply for one I don't think.

How much do passport photos cost? Nevermind the application fee.

It's not really going to work on a voluntary basis, because you wouldn't apply for one I don't think.

I take it you missed the 2006 scheme ?

Last time I renewed my driving license, the postmaster took the picture on a dedicated tablet for free.

Completely missed it, yes, but then I have a driving licence and a passport.
I guess the original question from the OP wasn't suggesting voluntary schemes, because there is no real point.

The whole 2006 fiasco started as a voluntary scheme. The idea (if you believe there was any serious thought about it) was that it would prove so useful, we'd all queue up for it.

As you may notice, there wasn't exactly universal approval.

https://www.theregister.com/2010/03/11/idcardforecast/

Certainly Gerard Darminin was saying that our problem with immigration is down to the fact we don't have national ID cards. I presume he meant mandatory.

Nope, you don't need to take a single driving lesson or test in order to have a UK provisional driving licence. That's an official, government issued ID. There are some people who can't afford this or manage an active application process, but that being so, ID cards will also be a problem for most of them.

The majority of Europe does charge, and presumably we aren't expecting that one card issued at 18 would do for the rest of an individual's life? There comes a point when it's not much use as a photo ID if so!

So really, if anyone thinks this is going to address issues of accessibility in a way that other forms of photo ID don't, they're being rather optimistic. Compulsory photo ID is the issue, varying the type doesn't address that.

Ok, @SerendipityJane
As I say I do not recall but I probably wasn't paying that much attention in 2006 as my kids were small and life was chaotic 😂
But that scheme wouldn't have any resemblance to a mandatory ID scheme, where penalties are given when you are found without it.

It was meant to be. As you can see it was killed before it had a chance (David Davies wielding the spread as I recall).

I realise I am a siren voice here, but if people want to make the same mistakes again, don't say some of us didn't speak up.

The last time this was tried it was an expensive mess that failed. Personal freedom and risk balanced with any actual benefit killed it off.

Physical cards are largely pointless. It's a database. Probably one with biometric data.
A very valuable database with potential for misuse.
The risk of things being tied to this database, then breaking when it fails, are very high (computer says no!).
Then the 'special cases' which are exceptions to the simple system - like VIPs, Undercover law / spy / VVIPs, witness protection, transitioning folks, freedom of movement people (Irish only now since Brexit) and..... children.

Yes ID cards for children with their fingerprints and iris scans could well be the reason such a scheme fails.

I think it works well on the continent, but we always like to do things our own way.
Gerard Darminin makes a valid point and I think in times of heightened security as well, I really don't see it as a problem, but everyone can have their own opinion.
Editing to say this is not a new idea to be honest, the folks in Brussels used to mention it a lot especially in the days when the migrants were hiding under lorries in the Tunnel.

Yes, it would likely be an expense to the taxpayer even on the assumption that, like most of Europe, we wouldn't provide cards throughout an individual's life for free.

As the NHS is a residence based system, unless we changed that we'd also need to maintain systems for checking ordinary residence. The cards would be stolen and misused in the same way that other forms of state issued ID are, and we would actually have to come up with some idea as to what to do with the people who don't manage to keep theirs valid when they eg turn up in A and E needing urgent care, or get arrested.

It's the English disease of gold plating anything that moves, apart from the poor.

Who then get outsourced to Capita.