Identity Cards: yes or no?

[Papyrophile]

Gerard Darminin, French Home Secretary equivalent, has said that the UK is making itself a migrant target because we have no national officially issued ID card proving entitlement.

I, a very ordinary citizen, already have an NHS number issued at birth, and a National Insurance number sent to me at 16, neither of which has changed. I also have a passport number, due for renewal next year, a driver's license and a Government Gateway number for my occasional exchanges with officialdom.

Why would anyone who has nothing to hide from the authorities prefer not to hold an official proof of identity?

You have only to look at the mess created when they were trying to merge various NHS IT systems just a few years ago to see how hugely difficult and expensive it would be to set up and manage a single database of some 60 million citizens -- as I recall the tech people at that time were saying that in such huge databases an error rate of around five to 10 percent is perfectly acceptable. (Not to mention the very serious threat of the database being hacked..)
That would be up to six million people at any one time who could find that their ID cards would be wrong or unusable for multiple reasons. And yes, you might not have to carry them at all times (at least initially) but if asked for them you would have to produce them within a certain period of time. Probably at a police station.
This is before considering the truly enormous costs involved. We would have to pay for them. As I recall the cost when they were being touted a few years ago was about the same as a passport. (80 quid). They would have to be renewed with a new photo every few years, and paid for again and again, just like a passport.
And i doubt very much that you would be able to use them for foreign travel so you would still need a passport as well. After all, do we accept a French person's carte d'identité at the UK border? No, they have to have a passport to enter the country.
I'm not even going to go into the whole civil liberties issue. But for those who say they
do not have any problem with them, why should this over-ride the many and valid concerns of those who do?

The other thought I had was who would profit from the introduction of ID cards?
Reckon Horizon would get the contract! Then we are all screwed!

Driving Licence

What does this mean exactly?

what would it add to a standard Identification card?

why do people think we need such cards?

ive never been asked for ID for decades...maybe i'm just off grid; what could you use an ID card for that would be a good thing compared to what happens now?

Fair enough...so are we saying that if you have either one of those things you don't need an ID card?

No point in doubling up, is there?

It’s one of those issues where most people are not bothered much, but there is a small percentage of society that goes absolutely NUTS when the subject is broached, and politicians are wary of this group.

I think that the public’s attitude towards ID cards has really moved on since Tony Blair first tried to talk about the topic. There is concern about people smuggling/illegal migration, for one thing. And in a world where people are putting their digital details and lifestyle information all over the web for everyone to see, it seems almost…. Quaint? To be worrying about ID cards?

They work fine in other countries. Perhaps make them voluntary to start, to reduce the huffing and puffing among the minority who really hate the idea.

I think the point is that landlords and employers would be required to check ID cards, and those who did not hold one would be “outed” as a result.

Of course, trying to enforce this in practice would not be as easy as we’d like to think. It might make more employers and landlords think twice about employing or letting to non ID card holders, though.

I think it would be a bit too much to expect an all-in-one seamless system from the get-go. Rolling information into one card would take time as it’s a cumbersome process, and having an ID card that serves the function of all these other cards would mean you’d have to have a 100% compulsory system from the get-go, because having a system where some drivers need to carry a driver’s license and some don’t (because it’s been rolled into their ID card) would get complicated and hard to police.

I think the most likely way this would develop is that you’d start off with a voluntary card (but you’d still have to have your driver’s license and all your other bits and pieces) to be held by those who wanted it. Over time, more and more systems would then get rolled into the ID card, rendering some old cars obsolete.

In Japan, we have the My Number card。everyone has a My Number assigned, but you don’t HAVE to carry the My Number card… yet. But from this October, our National Health Insurance cards will be disbanded and we will need to use our My Numbers in order to register at hospitals and get healthcare. So everyone will have to use a My Number card, OR walk around with an A4 sized piece of paper with their My Number code written on it (which you can ask for at a government office if you really hate carrying the card).

Would it?

It hasn't happened elsewhere.

I think the British were burned somewhat by the experience of WWII, but WWII was a weird, different time where the government was doing all sorts of intrusive things like rationing and forced relocation of people, because there was literally martial law.

Yeah, it would not be an easy switch. Not because it isn't technically possible, but because too many different and unlinked departments would have to collaborate. Also the people would object. Despite the fact that we essentially have ID cards now in varying forms, I don't think there is sufficient appetite from the public yet.

Totally different, as your med records can be huge and cover many different GPs Hospitals etc.

Why would it be inaccurate? there are 10s of millions of driving licences, ever had an inaccurate one?

Easiest way would be to initially, use the passport database for ID cards, then roll that out on a voluntary basis to anyone who wants one, the tech to have biometrics is reliable now, once accepted & bugs ironed out, make them compulsory.

The problem now is that anyone can be whoever they want to be when asked who they are, so people here with no right to remain, can disappear.

The ID card in France is free, in Germany its 37 euros, so if they can do this, i don't really see why we would need to charge £80 plus.

Couple of points

There is at least one database with everyone on them, the DWP/National Insurance one. I also imagine that every adult is on teh HMRC one as well.

If we were to use the Passport Office as a starting off point then about 75% oif the UK population hold a passport so I cant see that adding the remaining 25% is a huge issue.

Finally worth pointing out that because they have land borders which are porous most European states needed an ID card system to sort out who was who.

The UK relied on 'Port Control' to restrict who came in. I am not sure to what extent it was ever a perfect system and I suggest that it certainly isnt now

Whilst I actually wouldn't mind this. Of course in addition to the passport, driving licence and dozen other forms of ID this is not an argument for it.

Why would anyone who has nothing to hide from the authorities prefer not to hold an official proof of identity

It's just a gift to fascists and others if an authoritarian inclination .

I live abroad and they are mandatory. I have no issue with it at all. When you move, the police phyically check you live where you say you do and then all systems are updated. It shows your right to medical treatment if you go to hospital, GP can upload prescriptions on it, you can upload your travel pass / train tickets to it. With a card reader I can access all my govt information / do my tax returns / set up a rental guarantee etc. It's proof when I vote/ get a job. I can travel within Schengen (as I am a dual - national). It surely helps to prevent trafficking / illegal workers / NHS fraud etc. It costs 25 euros I think. I am so used to the convenience of it, I can't imagine why some people think it's some kind of fascist control tool unless you have something to hide.

I’m fairly agnostic about this (and intuitively not a fan) but it is interesting to note that the UK had the lawful means under EU law to limit the amount of time that EU migrants who came from the accession states spent in the uk and their access to state benefits, at the start of the Blair years but the uk government was unable to do this because the lack of an ID card for uk citizens made it impossible to differentiate on entry into the uk between uk citizens and EU passport holders. An ID card might have put a brake on the uncontrolled migration from Eastern Europe which was one of the key triggers for Brexit.

I’m fairly agnostic about this (and intuitively not a fan) but it is interesting to note that the UK had the lawful means under EU law to limit the amount of time that EU migrants who came from the accession states spent in the uk and their access to state benefits, at the start of the Blair years but the uk government was unable to do this because the lack of an ID card for uk citizens made it impossible to differentiate on entry into the uk between uk citizens and EU passport holders. An ID card might have put a brake on the uncontrolled migration from Eastern Europe which was one of the key triggers for Brexit.

I have zero problem with identity cards. Other countries have them so really cannot see an issue with us having them. Also, for those whom don't have a passport or driving licence, it will be a godsend, particularly for things like voting.

Never understood the fuss some make about this topic. It's a non-topic.

Edited for typo 🙄

I don't have any problem with universal ID cards but accept that the majority are never going to agree to them. However. I think it would be an extremely good idea if there was an optional (and preferably free or very low cost) ID card for those who don't want/can't afford/aren't eligible for a driving licence or passport. I know there is a Proof of Age card but that seems a ridiculous thing for someone over the age of about 30 to have to get.

France and Austria seem to manage just fine with ID cards, without everybody getting up in arms about it.

Of course we should have them. Trouble is, the issue has become some sort of sacred cow, like the NHS being free at the point of use. ‘We can’t do it, because we never have’ (except in wartime) - despite the fact that they work very well in so many other countries.

I'm not so sure they do in fact 'work very well' in other countries -- perhaps we should ask a young Frenchman of North African origin his opinions on them?
Brcause, let's face it, it's not going to be generally white, middle class British women of a certain age who will routinely be asked to produce them, is it?

So many places don't accept the Proof of Age card. I ended up getting a passport (as I can't get a driving licence) just for ID.

Not sure that all the different departments would need to collaborate at all. I'm pretty sure we've moved away from the idea of having all the databases integrated with each other and mountains of data on the card itself.

Basically, all it needs is to prove identity, i.e. basic details of the person, such as photo, and preferably other biometric data, maybe face recognition as extra proof. It would hold limited data, such as your NiNo, NHS number, passport number/driving licence number (if applicable), nationality, residence status, etc.

Officials wanting to access data, could swipe/scan the card for the basic ID data and interrogate their own database only in accordance with their access permissions.

I.e. a paramedic or doctor could scan the card to get NHS number and then read the data via whatever NHS database holds it.

Police could scan/read the card to interrogate the PNC, criminal records, driving licence, etc.

Border force officials could read/scan the card to check right to work in the UK, visa status, etc from their own database.

I think we've long moved on from the initial ideas of having your entire medical history or criminal record ON the card itself.

It’s a yes from me, I’ve lived in another European country and I had an identity number. Everything was linked to this number, you needed it to work and to get routine medical treatments etc. I once went to get an injection but because I’d finished work the following week I was not allowed to have it.
The French politician is correct.