Identity Cards: yes or no?

[Papyrophile]

Gerard Darminin, French Home Secretary equivalent, has said that the UK is making itself a migrant target because we have no national officially issued ID card proving entitlement.

I, a very ordinary citizen, already have an NHS number issued at birth, and a National Insurance number sent to me at 16, neither of which has changed. I also have a passport number, due for renewal next year, a driver's license and a Government Gateway number for my occasional exchanges with officialdom.

Why would anyone who has nothing to hide from the authorities prefer not to hold an official proof of identity?

My thoughts exactly

It’s true that it makes it very difficult to keep tabs on people who shouldn’t be here, like rejected asylum seekers for example. They just melt into the
informal economy.

A National ID wouldn’t fix this as you’d have to be a legal resident to get one. Rejected asylum seekers would not get one. It would be no different to now, where rejected asylum seekers don’t get a U.K. BRP (ID for legal immigrants)

All legal immigrants have the U.K. BRP which does this.

I think they are a good idea.

Me too. The card also had records of any covid jabs during the pandemic so no hassles with travelling, could be used to enter the country without a passport, records of health insurance, and utility and tax payments. Well integrated and very convenient.

But having ID cards available doesn't have to mean that it's compulsory to have them on your person at all times. Those are two separate issues.

I think that ID cards are long overdue in the UK. I've never understood that reluctance of so many about them. They would solve so many problems when ID is required of people who don't have passports or driving licences.

Passports and driving licences are all well and good, but there is no legal obligation to have either. You only need a passport if you intend to travel abroad. You only need a driving licence if you intend to at least learn to drive (beginning with the provisional licence of course). There is no obligation to do so.

Your passport does this.

Can't see why it would. Plenty of countries have them without it being compulsory to carry them at all times.

For what its worth

1. We are increasingly required to prove our ID and entitlement to certain things, but
2. If you dont have a passport/driving licence its not that easy
3. Also if you are not a UK National it isnt always that simple for an employer/landlord especially if they are a small one to decide if you are entitled to work or rent property

So why dont we have a national ID card system? Coupled with a 'population register' so we dont get another Windrush scandal

Given that about 75% of the population has a passport and all the work that is going on with Universal Credit to prove ID IK dont see that rolling out an ID card over - say 10 years would be that difficult.

I would suggest that

There should be a 'cut off date' - I would suggest 1960 or 1965 so anyone born before that date would not have to have a ID card as that is where records etc might be more problematic.

As part of the roll out I would like to see applications for UK Citizenship to be free and requirements relaxed so that it is an 'inclusive' not 'exclusionary' process.

I suggest that the card would carry

NHS No
National Insurance No
Nationality
Confirmation of the holders rights in respect of employment, renting and ownership of property in the UK
Address

The function of the card would be to register for NHS Services, and prove the entitlement to work and rent/buy property

Private organisations could use it to prove the holders ID where required by law eg to open bank accounts.

It has been suggested that you should be required to carry your driving licence when driving. I suggest that if your licence is lost or with the DVLA the ID card could act as a substitute BUT you should NOT be required to produce it for any other purpose

Well, I think it will be compulsory digital records enforced by handheld facial recognition scanners by police, in hospitals, certain secure workplaces and so on.

Can’t be done. The cards would be a nightmare to keep up to date esp since you want to add an address on there.

Having an NHS# doesn’t prove entitlement to NHS services as every expat has an NHS# but is not entitled to use the NHS.

Having an NI# doesn’t prove current entitlement to work either.

Right to work, rent, vote and so on depends on the visa- and when it expires or citizenship regardless of whether you have an NHS# or NI# yet or ever…

There isn’t a way to make an ID card that can be depended on to accurately list all current entitlements and rights.

No. No, no, a thousand times no.

The "nothing to hide" brigade don't see the dangers, and I agree with all the dangers already mentioned above. There would be function creep - there always is.

More than once, ID cards have been used in times of war to find out which people to kill. Something that seems so harmless - such as having details of one's religion on an ID card - can end up being lethal.

OK so what do you propose to do for those who dont have passports, driving licences etc to prove our ID when we want to vote, get a job etc?

I think passports should be free for all citizens at birth or naturalisation.

For immigrants, free BRP until they naturalise then see above.

The entitlement to NHS needs to stay separate as it is based on residency not immigration status/citizenship.

www.postoffice.co.uk/identity/easyid

I use this, it's really easy to set up and the faqs should explain most questions. It's digital so you need a smart phone but the principle is the same. It's free. If you use it to prove your right to work for example, the company running the check will pay the fee and can only get the data you release to them confirmed.
It's also a partnership, so the tech is run by a govt certified and secure identity company. Your data wont be anywhere near Horizon!

Or you can buy a PASS card which is £15 and is accepted for voting.

Are you getting your National Insurance and NHS Number mixed up, maybe?
NHS No is all digits.
National Insurance is a mixture of letters and numbers in a particular format.

Nope. I know from memory my NI number and my original NHS number.

I agree about the impact if brexit and the deliberate slow processing of asylum seekers. But asylum seekers don't get a huge amount of benefits.

And no I don't think ID cards are necessary. I didn't vote labour when John Prescott was pushing for it.
Have it as an alternative for those without passports or drivers license but otherwise unnecessary.

It's not...

I wish blairs government had got on with getting them in as the conservatives would not have been able to deport wind rush people.

Would it 'stop the boats' or would there still be sufficient employers who would turn a blind eye...

I am totally in favour of ID cards. Bring it on!

I can only see it as useful for those without passports or drivers licence.
Papers please isn't a society that I'd willingly walk in to.

This.

In a free country no one who isn't doing anything wrong should have to justify themselves or identify themselves.

The amount of privilege in the mindset of someone who has no problem carrying ID is significant. Many people could not do so reliably and securely.
Police already have the power to require someone who is acting suspiciously to identify themselves, they just need reasonable grounds to do so. Introducing compulsory ID cards makes "walking along the street" a suspicious behaviour if someone isn't carrying a handbag/wallet.

ID cards are in the authoritarian's toolkit. Those calling for them are those who want to make sure that everyone knows who is in the "in" crowd and who is in the "out" crowd so as to better organise uniting all those who are "in" to properly hate and exclude those who are "out", because controlling a population under authoritarianism requires an "out" category to be hated so that people don't start noticing that the state itself is becoming an ever-more worthy thing to oppose.

When we have liberty it is right and proper that there's a fuzzy, permeable and sometimes non-existent boundary between those who are conforming to the establishment and those who aren't. It's totally possible to have safeguards against harmful behaviours without requiring university conformity.