Single sex toilets and feminism

[DuesToTheDirt]

OK, maybe the toilet issue is getting done to death (and as we all know, single-sex provision is about far more than toilets). Anyway, given the number of women who seem to be ok with mixed-sex toilets, I want to know,

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?
b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?
c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?

I'm loosely defining "feminism" as supporting the rights, protections and advancement of women as a sex class, which by definition excludes men. By my definition "feminism" also excludes transwomen. I'm not really looking for people's opinion on individuals ("what about my lovely trans friend" etc), nor whether transwomen pass, nor whether they have been in women's toilets for decades. I want to know your opinons on women's rights.

For the poll:

YABU - feminism is compatible with accepting transwomen into women's toilets
YANBU - feminism is incompatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets

Here you go, someone worked it out using the census data too.

There are 48,000 transwomen.

Of that 30.4 million women, 125 are currently incarcerated as serious sex offenders.
1 in 243,000 Of the 48,000 transwomen, 82 are currently incarcerated as serious sex offenders. *

1 in every 585.

https://x.com/mar2vickers/status/1611484662093828127

And here you go, this was presented to parliament and I don't believe anyone has ever shown the information to be false.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

Ministry of Justice 2020 Data

The question of whether transwomen match male or female patterns of criminality is specifically addressed by the 2020 FOI referenced by Fair Play For Women (who have submitted evidence to the Committee). This is first time there has been official data to compare the rate of sex offending in 3 different groups. Men vs women vs transwomen. The hyperlinks below link to the FOI spreadsheet.

MOJ stats show 76 of the 129 male-born prisoners identifying as transgender (not counting any with GRCs) have at least 1 conviction of sexual offence. This includes 36 convictions for rape and 10 for attempted rape. These are clearly male type crimes (rape is defined as penetration with a penis).
Here is the number compared with figures for sex offending rates in men and women over the same period.

Comparisons of official MOJ statistics from March / April 2019 (most recent official count of transgender prisoners):

76 sex offenders out of 129 transwomen = 58.9%
125 sex offenders out of 3812 women in prison = 3.3% 13234 sex offenders out of 78781 men in prison = 16.8%

and here

Michael Biggs, ‘The Transition from Sex to Gender in English Prisons: Human Rights and Queer Theory’, SocArXiv, 17 May 2020

https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/43f2t

I am looking forward to someone posting the evidence that this group of male people should be treated any differently for safeguarding purposes for the safety of female people than ANY OTHER MALE PERSON.

In fact, I would welcome someone posting the evidence that a male person at any stage of their transition has the same or lower risk of committing a violent or sex crime as ANY OTHER FEMALE PERSON. And if you cannot post this evidence, why do you believe that this group of male people should be accessing ANY female single sex space.

And it is not just about safety. It is also about privacy and dignity.

Male people have form for using female people as resources for their own needs of validation, acceptance etc. Not just in prison but this can be extrapolated to be the case everywhere.

https://discovery.dundee.ac.uk/en/publications/she-was-just-like-a-lassie-analysing-the-views-of-cis-women-in-cu

And this is just the UK. Australia just famously had a male person demand damages for an app who rejected that male person's claim to be 'female'. Look up Giggle vs Tickle and tell us all why any female has to accept a male person onto an app meant to be a single sex space?

All this is based on transgression of female people's boundaries. Some male people, from different groups of male people wish to do this. What makes any of them different if they have claimed they have a transgender identity? They have not changed sex.

And how many more women and girls are to be considered acceptable collateral before you, general but you can only answer this from a personal perspective, start to hold the opinion that female single sex spaces should be just that, only for female people and NEVER for any group of male people above the age of about 8 years old? How many more? 1? 5? 20? 31 as one poster declared? 100 per year as another declared?

Mine is zero.

I'm really confused by people who consider themselves feminists but are "trans-inclusive", i.e. they believe some men are really women. What do they believe women are, and why do they think feminism is needed?

I used to be in the TWAW camp decades ago because TW were so rare, I don't think I ever met one and I'd never really thought about it. It didn't bother me that a TW would use a female public toilet.

I didn't think that TW were biological women but I respected their noun preference and gender choice.

Now I don't because it infringes on the rights of women and girls.

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?
Yes.

b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?
Yes!

c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?
I don't consider feminism compatible with the politics of transgenderism full stop, let alone allowing tims into our toilets.

How is allowing blokes into the girls loos a good idea? Have you ever asked yourself WHY single sex spaces exist? That the data shows excluding ALL males reduces the vulnerability of females to.... I don't know... Rape. Sexual assault. Violence....? In your privileged world, mixed loos are fine, but try telling that to Indian or Afghan schoolgirls....or British ones who.even Ofsted say face unprecedented levels of sexual harassment. If single sex wasn't a valuable tool in the fight against VAWG why does the data say otherwise? I rather think you want us to look at the bat/chicken/ pangolin over there.

Are trans women an oppressed minority? Serious question. How is the oppression measured?

Was this a post that you want me to answer? I am happy to, of course?

Nah, I misunderstood your point and thought you were being serious. I think we agree.

a) I thought I did, but by your definition maybe not
b) no
c) yes

And there we have it...men's rights trump women's rights therefore you can not be a feminist.

There is some opression there. No one can deny that. The figures of illegitimate discrimination in gaining employment, and apparently housing has been noted in the past in the UK.

However, I would suggest that some posters here will come along and use South American transgender prostitutes murder rates to try to support UK male people with trans identities being marginalised and oppressed. They will also use misinformation around suicide too.

The question is, is this group of male people more oppressed than the female people they are demanding additional rights to be removed from to allow them to have their rights prioritised?

I have not seen any credible evidence of this. Particularly when the CPS has issued guidance that any wife not using preferred pronouns, nouns and names is committing domestic abuse. When the bias in prioritising is that clear and the power differential is that clear, I cannot find some of the statistics used to support such claims as being credible.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

There are several studies, will find links here is ons

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/02/24/government-figures-70-per-cent-of-transgender-prisoners-are/

On the flip side the ONS have had to reject a request for data on violent crimes against transgender people on the basis of too few cases to enable statistical analysis

https://www.ons.gov.uk/aboutus/transparencyandgovernance/freedomofinformationfoi/violentcrimeratefortransgenderpeoplecomparedwiththegeneralpopulation2013to2023

Just to add - even if.you could magic the propensity to be anywhere as low as women's level of offending you still have the physical advantage - even an mediocre man could physically overpower most women 'and that includes.trans identified men.

Fearing MALES is not 'transphobia'.