Single sex toilets and feminism

[DuesToTheDirt]

OK, maybe the toilet issue is getting done to death (and as we all know, single-sex provision is about far more than toilets). Anyway, given the number of women who seem to be ok with mixed-sex toilets, I want to know,

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?
b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?
c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?

I'm loosely defining "feminism" as supporting the rights, protections and advancement of women as a sex class, which by definition excludes men. By my definition "feminism" also excludes transwomen. I'm not really looking for people's opinion on individuals ("what about my lovely trans friend" etc), nor whether transwomen pass, nor whether they have been in women's toilets for decades. I want to know your opinons on women's rights.

For the poll:

YABU - feminism is compatible with accepting transwomen into women's toilets
YANBU - feminism is incompatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets

The problem is, predators (because that's what we're talking about) don't need to disguise themselves under the current political climate. They just need to say they're women to gain access to women's spaces.

These predators have sexually assaulted and raped women in prison and assaulted women and girls in changing rooms and toilets. They also intimidate survivors of abuse and deter women from other cultures.

Men are saying they are women and beating women in sport. This has been a particular problem in the States where sports scholarships are given for university places. However they have been winning prizes in cycling and other sports. Recently in Australia a football team with 5 men won the women's league.

TRAs have also prevented women from meeting, deplatformed them and intruded on exclusive women's only spaces such as refuges, domestic violence services and lesbian groups.

I was on holiday this year and went some public loos - the ladies was small and there were only 2 cubicles. Someone was in one of the cubicles for ages so I had to take it in turns with my 2 girls in the other cubicle.

After at least 5 mins a man made a dash for it looking very embarrassed 😳. I didn't see as I was still in the cubicle having a wee.

I think he had mistaken the loo sign judging by his hasty exit. My girls thought it was hilarious but it was pretty weird when we thought we were on our own with another lady. I think my youngest might have been scared if I'd sent her in on her own.

If you consider transwomen to be women do you think there should be no single sex spaces or sex segregated sport?

Do you think transwomen should share women's refuges, changing rooms, sexual violence support groups, breast feeding groups or menopause support groups?

Should transwomen be allowed to compete in women's sport?

I have three questions for people:

1. Do you think that the men who harass and assault women in public will behave well in mixed-sex public toilets?

2. How do you think women's lives will be improved by making public toilets mixed-sex?

3. Do you think the women in developing countries who are campaigning for single-sex toilets are bigots who should be grateful that they already have progressive mixed-sex facilities?

Sorry, one more question.....

How do you tell the difference between a man pretending to be a woman and a transwoman?

"I'm not really looking for people's opinion... nor whether transwomen pass"

This is entirely what the toilet issue boils down to though isn't it? Physical appearance is the only way to police people using single sex bathrooms.

I do consider myself a feminist.
I support single sex toilets where its not possible to have individual gender neutral bathrooms (ie individual bathrooms not cubicles in one room). To me that would be a better option all round.
Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets
Personally I think yes. I believe transwomen are more vulnerable in male toilets due to the fact they are identifying as female therefore, to me, that's a feminist issue. I don't believe they are any more likely to be harmful to women in a bathroom than the openly male cleaners cleaning female only bathrooms. I also believe that many transmen coming into female only bathrooms would cause an uproar. Which is why it really comes down to physical appearance.

@EsmaCannonball

1. Do you think that the men who harass and assault women in public will behave well in mixed-sex public toilets?

No. However I think I'd feel safer in a mixed sex public toilet that opens into a busier and more public space than in an enclosed empty womans bathroom that they could walk into anyway.

1. How do you think women's lives will be improved by making public toilets mixed-sex?

As above if they are properly designed and fully enclosed I personally would feel safer. I also think it means men could access changing stations with children easier taking a load off mothers. It would also afford trans men (who we all seem to forget about) a potentially safer option without having to "out" themselves.

1. Do you think the women in developing countries who are campaigning for single-sex toilets are bigots who should be grateful that they already have progressive mixed-sex facilities?

Of course not but I'm also not in a developing country with the socio-econonic and political difficulties that exist there. What I can comment on is what is happening here in the UK which is very different. Context matters. I also wouldn't say that women campaigning for that here are 'bigots' I understand their concerns. I personally don't share those concerns but they are entitled to their opinion.

I think we’ll eventually move away from
segregating sport by sex and look at different ways of doing it (by weight, ability level etc).

yes I do agree that trans women should have access to women’s refuges, support groups, etc. if they are in need of support and have suffered violence just like other women. I speak as a woman who has been victim
of sexual assault and abusive behaviour from partners. I see no correlation between the perpetrators of this and trans women just because they both happened to be born with penises.

breastfeeding groups and menopause groups are for people who have gone through those things (which can also include trans men).

I think we’ll eventually move away from
segregating sport by sex and look at different ways of doing it (by weight, ability level etc).

Women aren't little men. Women and men are biologically different and develop differently. Men are bigger, faster and stronger than women. Teenage boys can easily beat world class female athletes.

I speak as a woman who has been victim
of sexual assault and abusive behaviour from partners.

You don't speak for all women, just yourself. Many survivors of abuse by men don't feel safe with men in their spaces. Men have assaulted vulnerable women in refuges and homeless hostels. They don't feel safe with men present in rape crisis groups.

I see no correlation between the perpetrators of this and trans women just because they both happened to be born with penises.

Because men just have to announce they're women in order to enter women's spaces, there is no way of knowing if they're predators or not, until it's too late. You don't have to actually do anything to intimidate a woman or child, being with a man when you're vulnerable can be enough.

Define transphobia - because it has now been used by the TRAs to mean any non belief in teans ideology - so you can be accepting of trans people but if you do not affirm that trans women are actually women you are defined as transphobic. If you don't believe that the affirmation model is appropriate for gender questioning children you are transphobic, if.you don't believe that children should be medically transitioned or raise concerns about the experimental nature of the trans medical world and poor outcomes of such treatments you are transphobic etc etc which is total bull shit imo and therefore any statement about transphobia is a joke.

It is not transphobic to believe that as males transwomen do not belong in single sex spaces - they need to lobby for a third space if they cannot use the facilities that match their sex.

Women's rights do not include men - including trans identified men. That is not transphobic.

A) Yes

B) Yes in theory, however in practice I don't believe there has ever been such a thing as a perfectly single sex toilet. By the time the male cleaners, plumbers, children, bouncers (if in a club), boyfriends women have snuck in or who are looking after their paralytic girlfriends, various maintenance staff, men who need to use the baby change (often only in the women's which is a whole other issue), or people who simply make a mistake (I've accidentally used the men's once) have all finished, the numbers of trans women who use the women's loos pales into insignificance and I don't believe their presence increases the risk to women any more than all the above do. I've never seen a trans woman in a women's loo. I have seen lots of male cleaners, and frankly if they wanted to perve, loiter, or sneakily install cameras, they'd draw a lot less attention than a man in makeup and women's clothing.

C) Yes.

Ps men who identify as women- including those who transition medically do not reduce any propensity to commit crime, including violent and sexual crime - there is no difference to their fellow men.

They also retain their physical advantage over women.

Therefore they poss the same threat as any man in single sex spaces.

Men are excluded from women's spaces even though a majority would not commit violent or sexual crimes - trans women pose the same threat and should be excluded on that basis.

If transwomen feel uncomfortable in mens spaces they need their own space- not to take women's spaces where they are statistically posing the same threat as any other man.

This!

Totally agree with this

I think we should simply make all toilets self enclosed, private and with a wash basin and sanpro facilities in each one. That would be better for women dealing with menstruation/bladder issues, concerns over safety, and concerns over privacy/dignity of transpeople. Toilets should just be toilets and kitted out for anyone to use, as they are in any private house. Ditto changing rooms. No need for this to be such an inflammatory issue or for anyone to feel unheard/unsafe/disrespected.

I think Julia Gillard has been proven to be no feminist when she has left Australia in such a mess where lesbians cannot meet without having to accept male
people and where the winning Metro league female football team for one region has 5 male players and six teams forfeited their games against them due to safety fears. At least one female player will never play again after life limiting injury caused by one of those players. That is just two of the directly impacted groups harmed by Gillard’s action in 2013.

Except that for the section of society who need toilets to remain with a gap.

The gap means that those who suffer illness can be checked and then accessed because it provides visibility that is vital. Having toilets that are fully enclosed then means that those people are either excluded from public life if they know they have a condition that could result in this, or it will mean someone who has been taken seriously ill suddenly has less chance of receiving the care they need.

There was always a reason for the gap under the door.

The constant claim that allowing a sub group of male people to access female toilets doesn’t harm anyone is a very weak and very privileged one. The very fact that others then support solution that then cause harms to female people because they were unaware of the female people’s needs is also massively concerning.

Excluding male people from female people’s toilets is a legitimate discrimination that also is not based on a group being ‘trans’ it is based on the unique needs of female people.

How do you resolve prisons, hospital wards and refuges from male violence and rape crisis centres?

They just need to say they're women to gain access to women's spaces.

it opens the door to men being able to walk into the ladies at any time, when it was the occasional obvious transwoman i think most women would have just ignored it, they would possibly have felt that the man wearing a dress and makeup was a transwoman and making an effort

now we are expected to let every man in

i was probably more on the ‘true trans’ side (I know, I know) but unfortunately I don’t think exceptions can be made anymore

I think we’ll eventually move away from
segregating sport by sex and look at different ways of doing it (by weight, ability level etc).

This tells me you do not play sport and you have not looked at the research into sporting performance differences between men and women. There are few sports where men, regardless of height or weight, will not, on average, have an advantage over women. Your proposal would see an end to women's sports. We are already seeing males dominating where they are permitted to compete in the women's category. This matters at club level because it feeds into elite level sport and in the USA it can mean the difference between a girl getting a sports scholarship to pay for her education and not being able to go to college at all.

yes I do agree that trans women should have access to women’s refuges, support groups, etc. if they are in need of support and have suffered violence just like other women. I speak as a woman who has been victim
of sexual assault and abusive behaviour from partners. I see no correlation between the perpetrators of this and trans women just because they both happened to be born with penises.

In the male prison estate the percentage of incarcerated men who have been found guilty of a sexual offence is 15 - 20%. The percentage of transwomen in prison who have been convicted of a sexual offence is 50 - 60 %. The differences in sexual offending rates have been found in both the USA and the UK.

Do you think that transwomen are more likely to be sex offenders or do you think it's more likely that sex offenders will claim to be transwomen?

Statistically 99% of sex offenders are "born with penises".

breastfeeding groups and menopause groups are for people who have gone through those things (which can also include trans men).

Interesting, I didn't mention transmen, they do not present the same threat to women, but you automatically included them because you know that there are immutable differences between male and female bodies. Given that you have told us you know that men and women are different can you tell me what measurable or observable characteristic makes a man a woman?
Are you reducing womanhood to a feeling?
How can you "feel" like something you are not and have never been?
How can you feel like anything other than yourself?

Posted by AngharadM yesterday at 13.52

I don't see why I should have to pretend that the transwoman in my recurrent miscarriage support group was anything but a cos playing narcissist getting an illicit thrill from listening to our pain and forcing us to listen as he described his entirely made up (and biologically impossible) miscarriage. So many women left that space further traumatised, but unable to speak and never to return to a support group they had set up and now run for the validation of emotional vultures.

Why do you think a man might want to attend a recurrent miscarriage support group? It was not a support group for men whose partners have experienced multiple miscarriages, this man was pretending to have had a miscarriage. We know that you know this is physically impossible, do you think the women who left the group, traumatised, were being unkind because they wouldn't pander to a man who was exploiting their pain for validation?

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?

Yes

b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?

Yes

c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?

No. I don't think it's feminist to put male desires over female needs.

I was in a bar with my daughter last year, it was a single cubicle which ooed on the the bar floor and there was a women in front of us

it took ages and the three of us waited and waited

then a bloke walked out, i did loudly comment as he walked away (can’t remember what i said but along the lines of ‘are you taking the mick’)

then he came back to ‘explain himself’

Apparently he needed a shit and the seat in the gents was broken

fucking idiot 😒

'In fact, it’s very easy for men to abuse women - the idea that they’d need to transition and disguise themselves as women to get away with it is laughable!'

Why do you wish to make it even easier then? I always find this type of claim to be 'laughable'. Because those who make it never consider that they are making it even easier for male people to abuse and attack female people.

This happens through telling female people that they must not report a male person that they seen entering the toilets to the police or to security. They must not tell other female people that there is a male in the toilets. They must not walk out themselves if they see a male person in the toilets.

There are now signs in female toilets telling female people to not question a male person who enters. There was even a university who declared that even showing any reaction was to be hateful, bigoted and transphobic because it was a microaggression.

imoh

breastfeeding groups and menopause groups are for people who have gone through those things (which can also include trans men)

the question was for transwomen…not transmen

Apologies imoh i didnt read FOJNs post properly