Single sex toilets and feminism

[DuesToTheDirt]

OK, maybe the toilet issue is getting done to death (and as we all know, single-sex provision is about far more than toilets). Anyway, given the number of women who seem to be ok with mixed-sex toilets, I want to know,

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?
b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?
c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?

I'm loosely defining "feminism" as supporting the rights, protections and advancement of women as a sex class, which by definition excludes men. By my definition "feminism" also excludes transwomen. I'm not really looking for people's opinion on individuals ("what about my lovely trans friend" etc), nor whether transwomen pass, nor whether they have been in women's toilets for decades. I want to know your opinons on women's rights.

For the poll:

YABU - feminism is compatible with accepting transwomen into women's toilets
YANBU - feminism is incompatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets

'All that narrative does is stigmatise trans women who are also at risk of male violence.'

This is a very emotionally manipulative statement.

Firstly, even those male people who identify as having a gender identity are 'male people'. No magic has occurred to make them female people. And it is also not for female people to be a human shield or human security for those male people.

If those male people are at such high risk of male violence, aren't they then going to encouraging those male attackers then into the female spaces as they follow them in?

There are many groups of male people who are at risk of violence in the male spaces. Excluding those under about 8 years old, what about these other groups? Are they also to be protected through using the female single sex space? Or just this group demanding additional rights?

The above statement simply doesn't hold up when you start to drill further into the issue.

It doesn't 'stigmatise trans women'. It points out that those male people are still male people and should not be in the female people's single sex spaces.

For those who have stated that 'transwomen are at risk of male violence in the female toilets' can you please provide the evidence that there has been a significant increase in these male on male attacks targeting male people with gender identities in the male single sex spaces in the UK?

Please link up the statistics that show this? If you cannot, why are you repeating an unfounded statement?

If there has been any increase in male on male violence in single sex spaces, where are the campaigns to raise awareness that this is unacceptable behaviour and that non-conforming and / or vulnerable male people should be welcomed into the male toilets and single sex spaces? Surely a national campaign needs to be done! There could be signage up everywhere and this should be of national importance!

The solution never was to just allow one group of vulnerable male people to access female single sex spaces. It was always to make male spaces more welcoming and accommodating to all male people.

If male people with transgender identities do not wish to use male spaces, then they should be campaigning to have their own spaces. Again, the solution was never to allow them to access female single sex spaces. That was the solution developed over time by misogynistic male people. Those who transitioned and their clinicians who told them that they should use female single sex spaces because to those clinicians minds, these male people were 'women'. Therefore, 'women' should be forced to accept these male people have some how magically changed sex. It was all based on dishonesty.

There are a great deal of privileged toilet users it seems on this thread and others. It is almost like they have never used the toilet to do anything other than 'just having a pee'.

What do women do in toilets?

I spent many days, often 2-3 times a week, where I had a stroller or pram jammed in the door because I had no one but myself to do shopping. And I didn’t need the change table so didn’t use the accessible toilet if there was one. That included at period time with flooding periods and hormonal diarrhoea. Particulary after pregnancy. Often with a crying infant.

I have also had to take my wheelchair bound elderly mother to a normal cubicle when there was no accessible toilet available. Where I couldn’t leave her to sit without assistance to remove the wheelchair to lock the door .

I, too, have washed clothing out, and at times had to unbutton shirts to get them dry from baby vomit, or leaking breasts.

I have even had to do this at work when I was stuck in an event for hours and could not leave to express so ended up with significant leakage. More than once. Because breastfeeding women work too.

And got dressed in work toilets for various reasons.

And cried there and comforted others. And hid there from men who wouldn’t take no for an answer.

I know I am not the only one because several times this past year I have come across half stripped women in the toilets while out dealing with similar issues.

The solution is not demanding gender neutral toilets. It is not suggesting fully enclosed cubicles. A female taking up a cubicle to wash and dry clothes is putting an undue time demand on those waiting to use that cubicle.

So, who does 'fully enclosed cubicles' actually help? Only those male people who wish to use the female spaces ultimately. Because now the line up for the toilet is longer. And if those cubicles are 'unisex', the male people are now also lining up. What a great solution!

There are many reasons that women do not want males in the toilet.

I often think it must be nice to never have had to deal with just period flooding the number of times I have since being a teenager. What a wonderfully privileged position to have been in! Well done those who have had this privilege who lack the understanding of that privilege and are happy to dismiss other's needs to retain female spaces as single sex with no male people.

I realise that I have very heavy periods compared to some people, but it certainly made me very aware of the need for single sex spaces. In fact, now in peri, I am on a menstrual leash. I cannot leave the house some days due to the flooding incidents, which is fine as those days I can work from home.

However, the female toilets have never been used just to ‘pee’. I am always surprised when people either never realised this or never acknowledge it.

'I think we’ll eventually move away from
segregating sport by sex and look at different ways of doing it (by weight, ability level etc).'

This statement shows a complete lack of understanding about the differences between male and female bodies. Can I recommend that you look at the World Rugby decision. They modelled all the different 'whatbout this' suggestions and found that there was no way to segregate other than sex for fairness and safety of female competitors.

https://www.world.rugby/the-game/player-welfare/guidelines/transgender/women

It has this paragraph, just for a start.

'In weight-lifting events, for instance, even when matched for mass and stature, males lift approximately 30% more weight than females. Evaluated differently, males are able to lift weights similar to females who weigh 30% to 40% more than them [10]. Functional movements such as explosive jumping are similarly larger in elite males than females, with approximately 30% more power generated during a counter­ movement jump [10].'

ie. this was the result of them modelling on 'weight classes' and on 'ability level' classes.

Guess what? Male athletes win!

If you and others want the evidence, can I suggest anyone who has ever used this same argument read the links on this thread below:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/5142027-save-female-sports-evidence-thread?page=1

By the way, most sports will already have mixed sex options where it is relevant. With that there is no need to put female people in a position of having unfair competition to make some male people happy.

Bodies compete in sport. Not identities.

Also, the very fact that on average a male who has been through male puberty, even with their dicks chopped off and testes removed, still retain most of their physical pubertal advatages. Including having a grip strength and punch power that exceeds 90% of female people.

There is nothing about a male person who has undergone extreme body modification that has made that male into a female person. And therefore this subgroup of male people need to be assessed as all other male people for risk of committing violence and sex crimes targeting female people.

What is it that those pushing the agenda that this group of male people should be accessing female spaces believe has changed to make that sub group of male people of the same risk level or lower of all other female people in the UK for risk assessment ?

And yet men have become priests, scout leaders, etc and built their very lives around ensuring access to vulnerable victims - do not underestimate the male drive. Also note AGP and fetishistic cross dressers who do so for the sexual thrill and build their.lives around that - do I want a sexually aroused AGP in singles sex spaces - no!

So yes, I do think a predator would use this loophole - which notably no longer requires a man to even dress as a woman (and if you think a transwoman does need to dress or look a certain way you are now transphobic these days).

I also think transwomen pose exactly the same risk as any other man so that is reason enough before even considering cos playing predators.

Behind the Looking glass gives an excellent perspective of the experience of the wives and children of males who declare they are female.

Oh dear are the people accusing us of transphobia demanding femininity from transwomen? How very transphobic of them.

How long will the queue be for those wanting to use urinals if there is only one toilet facility? Woman are not safe because they are in a locked cubicle, so many cubicles don’t actually lock, the doors are flimsy and men are physically stronger and bigger.
demanding single sex toilets is an aggressive action because it rides over those who disagree who some will then try to label. I would not like my granddaughter experiencing her first period at 10 in a public toilets surrounded by adult men.

Can we start getting those who have the opinion that male people should have access to female single sex spaces to start to put some numbers to their opinions? To quantify just how many female people they consider acceptable collateral before they start supporting female single sex spaces.

And no, I don't think unisex toilets are an adequate solution as per my posts above.

How many women or girls harmed is acceptable to allow a sub-set of male people to have access to female single sex spaces knowing that those male people have at least the same degree of risk of committing a sex offense as all the other male people in the UK?

And for the record, there has already been more than 1. Many more harmed. Particularly when you consider those who now exclude themselves from services and public life because they do not have single sex spaces available to them.

Would those dismissing the need for single sex spaces like to finally offer a number? or will it just be another n+1 exercise?

In the years of asking this question, I have seen two answers. One poster decreed 31 female people to be acceptable to be harmed. One male poster declared that over 100 each year was acceptable in his eyes to be harmed before he would accept that female people might have a case to argue that female single sex spaces are restored.

Anyone on this thread want to quantify the acceptable damage that their inaction or their active support of male people accessing female single sex spaces needs to have before they change their mind?

This is it- feminism isn’t a one issue thing- it has many facets and interpretations.

Many women who consider themselves strident feminists lack all intersectionality in their thinking for example- it’s women’s rights for women like me. This especially drives me mad when it comes to disability rights.

So, they aren’t my idea of feminists… but (annoyingly!) I have to accept other people have different views on what feminism is.

For you. You don't get to choose that other women have to share with men.

Single sex toilets are just that. Single SEX. The world has changed and we are not talking anymore about kind Hayley from Corrie ( a trans woman played by a woman). There is an incredibly aggressive breed of men who have very dodgy pasts and demand access as "trans" even though they are physically men and have not bothered to have surgery or a GRC. If I used to be ok with the odd post-op transsexual in the ladies, this is no longer the reality and is no longer ok. My daughter will not share toilets with a man. His problem, not mine.

Feminism centres females. That's it. Disability rights centres the disabled. Anti racism centres minorities. Mens rights centres men. It's that simple. If you're black and female, or disabled and female, where do the rights of men come into.it? Intersectionality is useful but right now it is used to destroy feminism by pretending to be about "everyone". Everyone and therefore no one. Bullshit.

Would you consider "Tara Wolf" a woman and include "her" in your feminism. A violent male with a violent past who was convicted of assaulting a 60 year old feminist (also a vintage like yourself). Tara thought "punching a terf" a great idea. "She" isn't the only one. Is it transphobic to not want to be anywhere near this.new breed of "trans woman"?

What, ideally should a transwoman look like? Because if they wear make up and dresses and wear their hair long, as millions of biological women do, they are accused of parodying women and promoting gender stereotypes.

You missed the point.

Transwomen can wear what they want, it's none of my business.

I was highlighting that no one has to "dress up as a woman" to claim to be a transwoman to access single sex spaces.

"I identify as a woman" is all that's required which basically means that any and all men can access single sex spaces.

we should focus more on men raping, killing and oppressing women

And yet you want to make it easier for men to do this by giving them access to ladies loos?

Somewhat contradictory......

There should be no expectation on any male with a gender identity to fit a certain profile.

The only expectation is that they acknowledge that they are male, and that they fully respect the needs of female people are different and unique to their own needs. Meaning they don’t use female single sex spaces, take opportunities set aside for female people to achieve after millennia of negative sexist discrimination and they don’t demand to be included in female sports categories. Or force compliance of their own philosophical belief in anyway, including language compliance.

It is always this petitchat, it is known as distraction.

Look there is a squirrel/bat/whatever, that is what we should be talking about. Not what you want to discuss which I don’t deem important because of my irrelevant point about ‘gender neutral toilets at my work/cafe/home’. If you were really a feminist you would be prioritising x, just like I am.

Just a reminder that toilets are there for the many unique needs of female people, needed because of their female body. And just because you, another female, have not needed to use a public toilet for anything other than ‘just to pee ‘ doesn’t make you the arbitrator of what other female people use the toilet for.

No male can ever experience life as a woman. They can only ever experience life as a male person who believes they are a woman.

Even when they 'act' like a woman, they are acting as they believe a 'woman' should act. Which is fucking misogynistic!

Even if they are treated 'as a woman' by some people, they are being treated as a 'male who presents as a woman and believes they are a woman'. Because their every reaction is based on that. Not on them being female in any way.

The only way a person can experience life as a woman, is to have a female body, formed around the production of large gametes, even if it doesn't produce those and to navigate their life based on the decisions they and society makes that revolve around them having that body.

A male can conceptualise what it might be like to be a female, but that is all it ever is. They may do it because they don't feel they fit into how they conceptualise how a male person interacts with the world (ie. their own stereotypes around being male) or they do it because they want to be seen as a female (using their own stereotypes of how a female navigates life).

How can the material reality be any different? This is why someone's gender is only based on someone's philosophical belief. And philosophical beliefs are fine for people to hold, but not one person in the UK has to comply with another's philosophical belief.

Using single sex spaces should never have been about someone’s philosophical belief that they are male or female. If you choose to share a male person’s philosophical belief that they are somehow a female with the same needs as female people, that is just your belief. It is fine that you have it.

No one else needs to comply with a belief that cannot be backed with credible evidence in any way. Centring those male people is not an act of feminism, it is an act of men’s rights activism to put a group of male people’s demands at a higher priority to female people’s established needs.

Speaking about what transgender people should look like, the two biological female transwomen have struck a chord this weekend. The reaction from some male people has been remarkable.

Apparently, female people cannot present themselves as male trans people and dildos stuck into underwear is not the same as lady dick.

Who knew!

I’m interested to know where this information comes from? What are the statistics that show that trans women pose the same threat as men? How have these been collated?

It comes from knowing how many male people with gender identities are currently in jail for violence and sex crimes. The information is available.

Here is a place to start.

https://archive.is/THF72

However, it is also an issue of logic. How exactly, and I mean in detail, does a male with a transgender identity change from
being just like any other male? Please list them and let’s go through the logic exercise.

For instance, some people declare it is hormone changes. Start with that. What makes a male with no or low testosterone due to disease or injury any different from one with a transgender identity ?

But we also know that so many don’t take testosterone suppressants, they love to use their dicks. So many post pics of them with full arousals on social media that this cannot be denied. So if they still have a dick they actively use for sex, what else is different between the groups of male people?

Dresses? Make up? Breasts? Even those who have had feminine facial surgery and have developed still likely have use of their dicks. 95% or more keep their dicks. Are you seriously going to say wearing a dress or make up makes a woman?

And many male people have breast development and are still male and that doesn’t reduce their risk of committing male pattern crimes.

So, please list what makes these males any different to other males?

And then the onus is on those who are pushing for change to prove that the group in question have the same rate of committing violent and sex crime as female people or lower to be considered at the female risk for safeguarding purposes. Ie. For access to any single sex space.

If you cannot find evidence to support your claim, why do you believe it? And why should any one else consider your opinion one that is informed?