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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Single sex toilets and feminism

116 replies

DuesToTheDirt · 31/08/2024 12:21

OK, maybe the toilet issue is getting done to death (and as we all know, single-sex provision is about far more than toilets). Anyway, given the number of women who seem to be ok with mixed-sex toilets, I want to know,

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?
b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?
c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?

I'm loosely defining "feminism" as supporting the rights, protections and advancement of women as a sex class, which by definition excludes men. By my definition "feminism" also excludes transwomen. I'm not really looking for people's opinion on individuals ("what about my lovely trans friend" etc), nor whether transwomen pass, nor whether they have been in women's toilets for decades. I want to know your opinons on women's rights.

For the poll:

YABU - feminism is compatible with accepting transwomen into women's toilets
YANBU - feminism is incompatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets

OP posts:
Giggorata · 31/08/2024 13:42

BIossomtoes · 31/08/2024 13:38

You’re not. You’re in a cubicle all by yourself.

Oh come on. Women have been forced into cubicles and assaulted.

username44416 · 31/08/2024 13:43

BIossomtoes · 31/08/2024 13:38

You’re not. You’re in a cubicle all by yourself.

I see. You've never been in a public toilet so fail to understand that it's a room with lots of cubicles. It's also been known for men to drag women into the cubicle, lock the door and rape them. Some men have set up cameras in women's cubicles and filmed them putting them up on porn websites.

To reiterate women and children have been raped and assaulted in public toilets. That obviously doesn't bother you but it bothers me.

Noname99 · 31/08/2024 13:45

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?
yes
b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?
Dont care. There have unisex toilets for decades. It’s a total non issue that undermines the serious concerns (prison, health care, sports)
c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?
yes - see above

AngharadM · 31/08/2024 13:52

Do you consider yourself a feminist?
Yes
Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?
Yes
Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?
Absolutely not. Women who are ok with men, male bodies (however they identify) into women's intimate spaces are complicit with rape culture and a coercive culture in which women are unable to say no, assert boundaries or push back - whether women are uncomfortable, have religious/cultural reasons or just don't want to, without having to share their feelings or trauma to see whether their rights is law are worthy of being granted.

Julia Gillard recently essentially suggested that female prisoners forced to share showers and cells with convicted sex offenders and stalkers were a minority; ditto others saying that the male boxers pushing women in the face only affects a few women. They forget the message sent to girls and women at grass roots sports, edged off the podium, or losing awards and prizes set up to widen female participation to males - you don't matter, and should stand back to let a male (such a small % of the population, but so over represented in offending and in women's gains) demonstrate how to woman better than you ever could. Either we have male/female prizes, sports, spaces, safeguarding for a reason or we don't. I'd rather people came out and said women actually aren't serious participants, so not worth investment or safeguarding.

Make everything mixed sex and watch women (biological, xx, female) disappear from sport, public life and decision making. Why is it that the NHS can use the word man when talking about prostate cancer, but goes struggles to say woman when it's breast or cervical cancer? Why do we not use penis or testicular people in male health literature, but chest feeding or birthing bodies (very handmaid's tale) when referring to women.

Misogyny has been rebranded as being kind, and this time the men on the left have middle class women who are able to buy/privilege their way out of the consequences they imposed on the rest of us doing a lot of the heavy lifting for them.

We can't say any more that 90% of sexual offending in leisure centres occur in the 10% of spaces that are mixed sex, that 48% of transgender prisoners are convicted of sexual offending v 17-19 % of male prisoners. It's transphobic and awful to remind people that sexual offenses are usually crimes that have escalated from unchecked peeping Tom, stalking etc when we see similar behaviours excused when every single safeguarding principle is ignored - google Surrey Pride, LGBTY in Scotland or even Drag Queen Story Hour.

Just as we say, NAMALT, not all transwomen are - but every one knows that predators will go where safeguarding is weakest, and there is opportunity; excluding men from female spaces is the ultimate safeguarding because it removes opportunity; Not all men, but almost without exception always men.

I don't see why I should have to pretend that the transwoman in my recurrent miscarriage support group was anything but a cos playing narcissist getting an illicit thrill from listening to our pain and forcing us to listen as he described his entirely made up (and biologically impossible) miscarriage. So many women left that space further traumatised, but unable to speak and never to return to a support group they had set up and now run for the validation of emotional vultures.

OneTC · 31/08/2024 13:54

Do you consider yourself a feminist?

No

Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?

Yes

Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?

Not really, but plenty would disagree

Maray1967 · 31/08/2024 14:03

InfoSecInTheCity · 31/08/2024 13:13

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?

I don't really know. I know that I support women's rights.

b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?

Yes, toilets should be single sex and then provision made available that people can use who do not feel their gender matches their sex. Although I think toilets are the least of the issue, I am much more concerned about the availability of genuinely single sex: changing facilities, hospitals, prisons, rape/domestic abuse shelters, therapy groups, mental health facilities, intimate care provision....

c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?

No, not really because if you deem it ok to force unconsenting females to be in an intimate situation with a male sexed person then I don't understand how you could consider yourself a champion of females.

I agree entirely.

If you consider it acceptable to require women to share places such as hospital bays, changing rooms, prisons, rape crisis sessions etc with people who are biologically male - even if you offer alternative provision (which is usually rubbish eg use the disabled loos) to women who object - you are centring male preferences and demands over women’s safety and dignity. In my view that means you are no feminist.

Sharptonguedwoman · 31/08/2024 14:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

BlueEyedLeucy · 31/08/2024 14:12

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?
Yes, but with a strong disconnect from the current loudest voices in feminism.
b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?
No.
c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?
Yes, I believe feminism includes support for trans women.

Usercyzabc · 31/08/2024 15:05

Magazinerack · 31/08/2024 12:29

I think transphobia is anti-feminist.

Horse shit.

Usercyzabc · 31/08/2024 15:07

Usercyzabc · 31/08/2024 15:05

Horse shit.

Unlike your statement I will justify mine - I don’t want biological males in my space for a myriad of reasons - yet I will be branded transphobic - this is a given - and now I’m also apparently anti feminist too. No thanks.

AsYouWiiiiiiiiiiiiish · 31/08/2024 15:13

A. Yes
B. Yes
C. NO. Under no circumstances is it even remotely compatible due to not only the impact on individual women, but the erosion of our rights as a whole.

FOJN · 31/08/2024 15:32

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?

I use to but now feminism seems to be about campaigning for mens rights so I've counted myself out. I think some people are confused about the difference between intersectional and inclusive. I'm very pro women. I don't believe men can be women.

b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?

I support single sex spaces for women. Toilets are often used as an example to trivialise the bigger issues with allowing some men into women's sex spaces.

c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?

No. If you support advancing a mens rights movement at the expense of women I don't understand how you can call yourself a feminist. There can be no campaign for women's rights if we are not defined as a sex class in law.

If a man can say he is a woman and use women's toilets then how can you argue he shouldn't be housed in the female prison estate (for example) and share a cell with a woman? Is he a woman sometimes but not at others?

AsYouWiiiiiiiiiiiiish · 31/08/2024 16:26

FOJN · 31/08/2024 15:32

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?

I use to but now feminism seems to be about campaigning for mens rights so I've counted myself out. I think some people are confused about the difference between intersectional and inclusive. I'm very pro women. I don't believe men can be women.

b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?

I support single sex spaces for women. Toilets are often used as an example to trivialise the bigger issues with allowing some men into women's sex spaces.

c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?

No. If you support advancing a mens rights movement at the expense of women I don't understand how you can call yourself a feminist. There can be no campaign for women's rights if we are not defined as a sex class in law.

If a man can say he is a woman and use women's toilets then how can you argue he shouldn't be housed in the female prison estate (for example) and share a cell with a woman? Is he a woman sometimes but not at others?

You are utterly brilliant. I wish I was this eloquent

lifeinthelastlane · 31/08/2024 17:22

Yes
yes
no

Sharptonguedwoman · 31/08/2024 18:10

BIossomtoes · 31/08/2024 13:38

You’re not. You’re in a cubicle all by yourself.

A schoolboy can ‘donkey kick’ those doors open. There was a case in the media. Mixed sex toilets in a school.

PottedPlantCrazy · 31/08/2024 18:25

InfoSecInTheCity · 31/08/2024 13:13

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?

I don't really know. I know that I support women's rights.

b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?

Yes, toilets should be single sex and then provision made available that people can use who do not feel their gender matches their sex. Although I think toilets are the least of the issue, I am much more concerned about the availability of genuinely single sex: changing facilities, hospitals, prisons, rape/domestic abuse shelters, therapy groups, mental health facilities, intimate care provision....

c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?

No, not really because if you deem it ok to force unconsenting females to be in an intimate situation with a male sexed person then I don't understand how you could consider yourself a champion of females.

I so hope I’ve quoted this correctly, I FULLY agree with every single thing you have said here. Bang on.

Scammersarescum · 31/08/2024 18:32

FOJN · 31/08/2024 15:32

a) Do you consider yourself a feminist?

I use to but now feminism seems to be about campaigning for mens rights so I've counted myself out. I think some people are confused about the difference between intersectional and inclusive. I'm very pro women. I don't believe men can be women.

b) Do you support single-sex toilets (women only, no men, no transwomen)?

I support single sex spaces for women. Toilets are often used as an example to trivialise the bigger issues with allowing some men into women's sex spaces.

c) Do you consider feminism compatible with allowing transwomen into women's toilets?

No. If you support advancing a mens rights movement at the expense of women I don't understand how you can call yourself a feminist. There can be no campaign for women's rights if we are not defined as a sex class in law.

If a man can say he is a woman and use women's toilets then how can you argue he shouldn't be housed in the female prison estate (for example) and share a cell with a woman? Is he a woman sometimes but not at others?

Exactly this. Thanks @FOJN

Stompythedinosaur · 31/08/2024 18:34

I'm a feminist who believes trans-women are women and has no issue sharing our single gender toilets.

In fairness, I was never worried about the mixed gender toilets at my previous workplace either.

There are many different views within feminism, no one gets to dictate that only people who think exactly the same as them are allowed to use the term.

I'm the type of feminist who thinks we should focus more on men raping, killing and oppressing women than on whether a another minority group, that's also subject to oppression, is able to have a pee when they need.

lifeinthelastlane · 31/08/2024 18:59

Well yes, let's make it easier for the men who would want to kill, rape, assault or just plain perve over us to have unlimited access to spaces where women are more vulnerable.

RufustheFactualReindeer · 31/08/2024 19:12

Yes
yes
i struggle a bit with this one, i don’t think I should say that someone isn’t a feminist BUT it makes no logical sense to me so if forced to I would say No

DuesToTheDirt · 31/08/2024 22:14

cookiegardencat · 31/08/2024 13:05

yes I support single sex toilets (which transwomen have access to)

yes I am a feminist. feminism isn't anti man or anti trans. feminism that isn't inclusive isn't feminism.

I'm saddened by the anti trans movement appropriating feminism and mumsnet is full of it. I'm reassured to hear there are some other voices here though so commenting to echo that.

Who should feminism be inclusive of? Women, and only women, surely?

OP posts:
cookiegardencat · 31/08/2024 22:38

DuesToTheDirt · 31/08/2024 22:14

Who should feminism be inclusive of? Women, and only women, surely?

Edited

women yes, of all intersections

and I can't help but think that the anti trans rhetoric is actually setting feminism back.

username44416 · 31/08/2024 22:39

cookiegardencat · 31/08/2024 22:38

women yes, of all intersections

and I can't help but think that the anti trans rhetoric is actually setting feminism back.

How so?

RufustheFactualReindeer · 31/08/2024 22:48

Oh and i don’t get those saying they support single sex spaces but they include transwomen in that

i get saying single gender spaces….even if i don’t agree, but single sex makes no sense

lmoh · 31/08/2024 23:09

It’s actually been very heartening to see some trans inclusive content under this thread! Mumsnet can be a very toxic space when it comes to trans rights (before anyone comes at me with ‘women’s rights’ I consider trans women to be women).

really don’t care about toilet spaces. The way I see it is if a man wants to molest someone in a toilet, he doesn’t need to pretend to be a woman to do that. In fact, it’s very easy for men to abuse women - the idea that they’d need to transition and disguise themselves as women to get away with it is laughable! All that narrative does is stigmatise trans women who are also at risk of male violence.

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