Nope, not 'of course'. That's a vast generalisation, not least because children needing wraparound are not 'small' and are often of an age where they don't actually need supervision.
There certainly exist children who'd affect the role, of course. But that is a different point. And regardless of whether you think care should exist during those work hours, it doesn't always. This is a fact on the ground, perhaps one you've been shielded from if so many of your employees have partners who are able to look after DC.
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 11:51
Of course the presence of a small child or children is going to affect the role. The hours are what the hours are, no small child that needs supervision and care should be there during those hours.
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 11:39
Doesn't tell us anything about the question you asked. Ultimately, it comes down to does the presence of the child actually affect the role, and if so, does the employer have better options available for the wage they want to pay.
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 11:34
Employer.. hours are 9 to 5, Mon to Friday. Can you commit to those hours?
Potential Employee. .. of course! Note to self, do not mention I will have young kids here and if they ask.. say I have childcare.
Happens all the time.
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 11:27
No idea, especially as I don't know what 'willingly' means in this context. Do they have other options, is the employee cheaper and/or better quality than the employer would otherwise be able to access, would it be an option for both of us for them to take unpaid leave over the holidays instead, is it a role where the child's presence actually makes a difference? This is what I mean about generalisations.
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 11:18
Tell me this then, how many employers would willingly employ someone who looked after their kids all day then? Not many! Most people don’t divulge that information at interviews.
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 11:14
The last sentence is you talking specifically about your business. As you've said already, you can't speak for other organisations. Not all roles require meetings, some of those that do can be hived into a time when the DC aren't there, and some meetings can happen fine with a DC in the house.
If there's one thing this thread ought to make clear, it's that generalisations on this issue get us nowhere.
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 11:11
No see here is where the lines are blurred. I am quite flexible as I mentioned, if the work got done around a time that suited both of us and the business I would have no problem with that. If someone contacted me and said they had something on or something happened and they would work on the report that evening instead, no problem, the work gets done. If you have kids there every day, a lot of the work does not get done, online meetings cannot happen, phone interruptions etc. that doesn’t work for me.
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 11:06
Sometimes. Other times, it's just a question of accepting that the work might get done at a different time than it otherwise would. And everything inbetween.
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 11:01
Nightmare for employers in that case then.
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 10:59
Yes, fair to say if you're recruiting in an area where people don't need niche expertise it's going to be easier for you than it is for employers where the workers hold the balance of power. Meanwhile, the UK as a whole doesn't have enough workers or skills.
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 10:55
Well glad I am not one of those employers with an employee double jobbing and not getting the work done. What a nightmare to be paying people for work they don’t do or do badly. Realising how lucky I am as an employer that I don’t need employees with these so hard to get skillsets that cannot be replaced even if they leave of their own accord!
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 10:51
Primary aged kids, not small kids is what we're talking about. And there's no guarantee that it would affect productivity. But sucking it up may well be their least worst option, yep. If there isn't childcare and the employer doesn't have the option of an equally skilled worker who doesn't need childcare, this brings us back to what alternative you think there is.
You don't have to be happy about this for it to be true.
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 10:47
So what you are saying is, let me get this straight.. an employer needs to suck it up and allow their employees to look after small kids at home when it affects their availability, productivity and ability to do the job well because there is a skill shortage?
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 10:38
Yet again, we're not talking about your own organisation here. Because you went much more comprehensive than that. You spoke in generalities.
Do you not understand that there are loads of unfilled positions at the moment? You may very well work only with people who are easy to replace, but that is not replicated across the board.
The fact that you keep insisting this couldn't possibly happen is interesting, anyway. I'm not sure whether you know you've got this wrong and are trying to wriggle out of it, or you're genuinely in blissful, fingers in ears ignorance about the UK skills shortage.
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 10:35
If I already employ them and then they have kids and expect me to pay them while they take care of them at the same time they are working for me, I will let them go. It states in the contract that you cannot have young kids present during working hours. They have signed this so they know the score.
I will always find someone else. Nobody is indispensable 😂. What would I do if they decided to leave of their own accord? Never fill their position? Don’t be ridiculous.
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 10:30
That isn't answering the question, it's swerving it. You already employ them. Perhaps they didn't have DC when you took them on, or perhaps they did but you didn't know, or perhaps they were nursery aged so the issue didn't arise.
And to answer your other subsequent post, you're wrong to say employers of course have the option not to employ such workers. They may not be able to get anyone else. You may not have realised this before, but you know now.
So what should happen in this specific situation?
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 09:49
I answered the question about 4 times. I would NOT employ them!
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 09:44
Yes, a lot would not work or have to work less. That's a massive part of the point. That in a society where we don't have enough wraparound and summer childcare, we would lose the labour of some workers entirely if they weren't able to do things like look after DC whilst working sometimes. You know what else affects productivity? People not being in the workplace at all.
Anyway, tell us what should happen if the worker can't find a childminder or holiday care, meaning the employer doesn't have the option of the worker not being in this position in the first place. Stop swerving the question. And nope, you don't get to narrow the range now either. Summer childcare provision isn't just needed for 5 year olds.
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 09:37
You are being deliberately obtuse. I don’t care what they do, their childcare is not my problem. What would they do if WFH was not an option? Not work? No they double job and expect the employer to “suck it up”. That affects availability and productivity. It’s taking the piss.
Again, for your comprehension, I am not talking about 11 year olds like in the PP instance, I am talking about small kids.
Find a childminder and pay the money and do your job properly.
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 09:30
Did you not understand that 11 year olds are over 5? Maybe we need to pause this discussion whilst you learn to count. When you've done that, you can look up what age children are at school and thus off in the summer holidays.
In any case, what do you think employers with workers who don't have access to summer holiday childcare for their school aged DC should do? Be specific.
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 09:27
You said kids who are 5 plus. Do keep up.
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 09:25
What, 11 year olds are small kids now? Cop on indeed!
Interesting, either way, that you've completely failed to engage with the reality of the childcare landscape. What do you think employers who don't have the option of an employee who isn't in this situation should do? Be specific. And improve your comprehension too, you've already shown yourself up with the TTO thing.
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 09:16
5 plus? They are SMALL kids who need full time care. So in your logic, an employer has to “suck it up” while you “work” and look after a five year old at the same time? Will ya cop on!
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 09:12
Firstly, I said kids and not small kids. That's important, because working parents of small kids are the ones most likely to have year round provision already. So actually, we're talking overwhelmingly about DC who are 5 plus. Nor did I say anything about 'full time'. There are situations where childcare exists but won't cover full work hours.
And secondly, you as an employer wanting holiday childcare to be available does not magic provision into existence. Well, unless you're an employer of a childcare company I suppose. You can be as outraged as you like, but meanwhile there are some areas where there's nothing at all and others where the provision is shorter hours. I don't need holiday clubs for childcare myself, but the ones in our area are all 9 to 3 or 9.30 to 3.30.
What this means is that in some cases, having the parent working and the DC never present is not one of the choices the employer has. They'd need to either get someone else entirely, which may not even be possible in this job market. Or they accept that the existence of DC and insufficient childcare means the worker is going to be looking after the DC sometimes or taking unpaid parental leave. The least disruptive option for all concerned often involves some time where the child is around at the same time as the parent working. As an employer, you might just have to suck it up.
Quoting Peakpeakpeak
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 09:04
It shouldn’t be a thing! How on earth are you meant to work with small kids running around? How can you be productive, be available and have your mind on the job when you are doing a full time job of childcare already? Let alone the effect it will have on the kids. As an employer I would never allow this.
Quoting Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers
Peakpeakpeak ·
30/08/2024 08:59
That poster has said clearly that she's term time only...
But there are people looking after DC whilst working over the summer. It's a thing. The state of holiday childcare in this country is such that it couldn't be otherwise, and some employers have the wit to understand that them preferring a worker who doesn't need to do this doesn't mean that such a worker is available.
Quoting Nuggetnuggety
Youcantellalotofthingsabouttheflowers ·
30/08/2024 08:56
So no you don’t then. 2 weeks of a club they need dropping to and from does not equate childcare. So he is technically looking after kids in the Summer holidays on work time.
Nuggetnuggety ·
30/08/2024 08:53
Nah he is still doing childcare in working hours
His employee has no issues with him collecting dc on his lunch break or him talking to his dc on his lunch break. Why would you think it’s an issue? And as I said I’m home before his hour is up but he doesn’t rush back to the office because he’s still on lunch.. oh and lunch is unpaid, like mine is.
if he was in the office you would have to pay for childcare I presume you do in the summer holidays and half term? Or does he just let them play in garden when he works?
Im TTO & as I said p/t. We do still pay for some childcare eg they did a week of tennis school & a week of activity club at school this summer. We are fortunate that money isn’t an issue & isn’t a motivator for us. I don’t work Fridays but both dc do clubs after school that day because they want too.