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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we should all boycott John Lewis until they respect their female employees

842 replies

Lovelyview · 29/08/2024 17:26

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/resignation-letter-from-a-john-lewis

This is a letter from a female employee of John Lewis's Cheadle branch. John Lewis told its female employees that they have to share toilets and locker rooms with trans identifying men. The employee says this is having a terrible effect especially on colleagues who have experienced trauma relating to men or who have religious reasons to not want to share a space with someone who is the opposite sex.

Resignation letter from a John Lewis Partner

The John Lewis Partnership is abusing its female staff and customers

https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/resignation-letter-from-a-john-lewis

OP posts:
Thread gallery
13
Helleofabore · 03/09/2024 11:23

BeachParty · 03/09/2024 11:14

Is this thread just the usual echo chamber two talking to each other now?
All the earlier personal attacks at any dissent seem to have worked 👍

And yet, thanks to the 'thanks' button, we know that each post is being read by new comers who have not posted. As you know, I encourage people to come and provide well evidenced discussion, and am always happy to read any evidence linked up.

And yet, whenever evidence is requested to support posts, those declaring that there is evidence or to have knowledge never post any.

Do you have any evidence to support dadjokes claims? Or any evidence to support how a male can become a female person to be able to claim access to female single sex spaces?

After all, a well discussed and evidenced thread cannot be an echo chamber if all sides of the discussion contribute evidence based views, can it? It is remarkable though how that derogatory term 'echo chamber' is so often used by you in this current username, yet I don't believe I have seen much by way of evidence based contributions.

Helleofabore · 03/09/2024 11:24

BeachParty · 03/09/2024 11:14

Is this thread just the usual echo chamber two talking to each other now?
All the earlier personal attacks at any dissent seem to have worked 👍

And by the way, you have just attempted to shame two posters who have answered a question from another poster. Well done.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 03/09/2024 11:26

BeachParty · 03/09/2024 11:14

Is this thread just the usual echo chamber two talking to each other now?
All the earlier personal attacks at any dissent seem to have worked 👍

Do you have anything of value to add?

Helleofabore · 03/09/2024 11:31

'echo chamber' has become pretty much as meaningless as the words 'respect', 'tolerance', 'inclusion' and 'woman', 'girl', 'female'.

It is also a very lazy accusation and generally from the few posters who don't seem to contribute evidence based discussion where in fact, that is what is very important. To have made such significant changes to employment conditions such as this, it should be based on evidence rather than on philosophical and political beliefs.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2024 11:34

Is this thread just the usual echo chamber two talking to each other now?
All the earlier personal attacks at any dissent seem to have worked 👍

How is that comment not a personal attack itself, then? I don't tend to report, and nor do others, because we would rather leave it up. But from where I'm standing there are some double standards here.

Helleofabore · 03/09/2024 11:36

"How is that comment not a personal attack itself, then?"

I was just thinking the same actually.

And from a poster who has a history in using the term derogatively. I wonder if that will actually sink in. Maybe that poster will ask for their post to be withdrawn in acknowledgement.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2024 11:37

Perhaps you'd like to give your thoughts on the recent John Lewis staff magazine featuring "Ruby" at Waitrose Brighton, to which I've linked a screenshot @BeachParty?

https://x.com/yourmumss_aterf/status/1758579478379257991?s=46&t=SPorwN-mokktL467rcZ57g

BeachParty · 03/09/2024 11:43

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 03/09/2024 11:26

Do you have anything of value to add?

I've been posting on the thread earlier on, ta

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2024 11:44

That's not the question.

BeachParty · 03/09/2024 11:45

And yet, thanks to the 'thanks' button, we know that each post is being read by new comers who have not posted

Yes, I like the new thanks button too.
I find people who don't always feel able to post can acknowledge too, like you say.

Helleofabore · 03/09/2024 11:47

BeachParty · 03/09/2024 11:45

And yet, thanks to the 'thanks' button, we know that each post is being read by new comers who have not posted

Yes, I like the new thanks button too.
I find people who don't always feel able to post can acknowledge too, like you say.

Yes. I agree. Isn't it wonderful.

And from that entire post, that is all you could respond to. That is also great to know.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2024 11:49

Yes, it's awesome. And when people boast on the threads about it, it's a nice change from "well I've had 873 PMs agreeing with me".

BeachParty · 03/09/2024 11:49

Helleofabore · 03/09/2024 11:47

Yes. I agree. Isn't it wonderful.

And from that entire post, that is all you could respond to. That is also great to know.

Edited

Yes, we can agree on this 🙂

BeachParty · 03/09/2024 11:49

That it's wonderful, that is 🙂

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2024 11:49

We can 😀

BeachParty · 03/09/2024 11:51

👍

Helleofabore · 03/09/2024 11:55

BeachParty · 03/09/2024 11:49

Yes, we can agree on this 🙂

So, while we are in an agreeable mood, would you like to report your own post for personal attack towards Ereshkigalangcleg and I, as well as making a negative generalisation about a group of posters which is also against the Talk Guidelines?

Helleofabore · 03/09/2024 11:57

BeachParty · 03/09/2024 11:49

Yes, we can agree on this 🙂

Would you also agree that a diagnosis of gender dysphoria is no longer needed for any male person to declare that they have a transgender identity that is 'female' sexed?

IAmAWarriorPrincessHonestGuv · 03/09/2024 12:03

FredericC · 02/09/2024 18:28

Good for JL recognising trans women are women. If any employees have trauma to such an extent they can't use a toilet that may also be used by a trans woman (which would rule out shared disabled loos for starters) and are unable to be alone in a room with a male without exacerbating trauma then they need to see their GP ASAP to explore mental health treatment and be given workplace adjustments in the meantime. The solution is not to try and impose your own narrow view of gender and sex on others, who have every right to use the facilities that align with their own gender.

If JL expected trans women to be excluded from women-only spaces because of the small number of cis women who have an issue with it would be bigoted in the extreme.

I don't usually shop there but I might have a browse next time I'm nearby and start getting my cosmetics from there rather than the usual shops I frequent :)

So you are attempting to shame women and young girls who feel uncomfortable alone with an unknown male in an enclosed space for any reason including rape, domestic violence, trauma or just boundaries of privacy?

I read a horrifying fact the other day. A victim of a brutal gang rape in India who remained unconscious until she died of her horrific injuries still flinched in her unconscious state when a man spoke near her - such was the imprint the trauma left on her body.

Gender is self declared and often imperceptible to the beholder - sex is immutable and almost always very obvious to bystanders.

Why do you think women should be denied women only spaces if they want them?

That use of the word ‘bigoted’ is incorrect btw.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2024 12:28

I read a horrifying fact the other day. A victim of a brutal gang rape in India who remained unconscious until she died of her horrific injuries still flinched in her unconscious state when a man spoke near her - such was the imprint the trauma left on her body.

That's chilling and heartbreaking Sad

SoundTheSirens · 03/09/2024 12:34

Transwomen are men. There is no value judgement in calling a man a man, it’s a simple biological fact. I don’t hate men (I’m married to a perfectly nice one), but I do recognise that as a sex class, men pose a threat to women. That’s the whole concept behind single-sex spaces in the first place.

The threat that men pose is based on the fact the average man is bigger and stronger than the average woman and, in the penis, has a built-in weapon. These are physical, biological factors. Sex is a physical, biological matter. Single-sex spaces are in existence because of these physical, biological differences between men and women.

If a man “identifies as a woman”, be that because of crippling dysphoria, an opportunity to act out a fetish, a response to internalised homophobia on realising they’re gay or just for shits and giggles, it doesn’t change the fact they’re a man. Male. Biologically different from women. Having SRS and taking hormones doesn’t change the fact they’re a man. Our sex is coded in every cell of our body.

“Gender identity” =/= sex, and attempts to conflate the two are unhelpful. The GRA itself recognises that any change is merely a legal fiction.

There is no inherent right for any man, however he identifies, to enter single-sex spaces designated as female in the UK. Being prevented from doing so does not mean he is banned from being able to participate in public life, as he can use the spaces designated for his sex (this also applies to sports etc). As soon as he does enter a space meant for women, that space becomes mixed sex.

When considering people who claim a gender identity which differs from their sex, service providers may choose not to enforce the “legitimate and proportionate” exclusion granted them under the EA2010, as is their right; however anyone who feels strongly that there is a valid reason for sex-segregated spaces may campaign for them to be reinstated / introduced, as is their right. The writer of the letter OP posted feels strongly that there should be SSS for JL staff and has raised awareness of their lack accordingly; many women here (myself included) agree with her.

Certain cohorts of women being excluded from taking a full part in society if they have nowhere free from the opposite sex to undertake activities where we are more vulnerable would certainly seem like a legitimate and proportionate aim, especially if the situation without the legal exclusion is that men have, ipso facto a choice of two spaces whereas women who want or need single-sex now have none. I appreciate though that there is a minority of posters here who think that women’s rights don’t matter compared to additional trans demands, so are quite happy with that state of affairs, regardless of whether that woman is, for example, from a minority faith. They are quick to shout “transphobia” while conveniently ignoring their own Islamophobia and antisemitism, quite apart from their misogyny (internalised or otherwise).

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2024 12:39

Transwomen are men. There is no value judgement in calling a man a man, it’s a simple biological fact. I don’t hate men (I’m married to a perfectly nice one), but I do recognise that as a sex class, men pose a threat to women. That’s the whole concept behind single-sex spaces in the first place.

The threat that men pose is based on the fact the average man is bigger and stronger than the average woman and, in the penis, has a built-in weapon. These are physical, biological factors. Sex is a physical, biological matter. Single-sex spaces are in existence because of these physical, biological differences between men and women.

If a man “identifies as a woman”, be that because of crippling dysphoria, an opportunity to act out a fetish, a response to internalised homophobia on realising they’re gay or just for shits and giggles, it doesn’t change the fact they’re a man. Male. Biologically different from women. Having SRS and taking hormones doesn’t change the fact they’re a man. Our sex is coded in every cell of our body.

It's really as simple as that. A "trans woman" for me, is just a variety of male person. Aka men and boys.

SoundTheSirens · 03/09/2024 12:59

It's really as simple as that. A "trans woman" for me, is just a variety of male person. Aka men and boys.

At the risk of sounding petty - but it actually isn’t, because as we’ve seen language, and the precise use of it, is important - it’s why I don’t insert a space between “trans” and “woman/women” when I write TW in full. “Trans” in that particular context is not acting as a descriptor of a subset of women, it is part of a noun naming a specific subset of men.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2024 13:24

I mean they call them "trans women", not me. I never use that term unless I'm responding to someone who has.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/09/2024 13:27

I don't use either term. Here, and elsewhere I risk sanction for wrongthink I use MTF trans person, elsewhere (and by choice) I am clearer. I think "transwomen" isn't much better than "trans women", personally. They aren't women in any sense.