Page 16 | To think we should all boycott John Lewis until they respect their female employees

Lovelyview · 2024-08-29T16:26:16+00:00

[[https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/resignation-letter-from-a-john-lewis https://grahamlinehan.substack.com/p/resignation-letter-from-a-john-lewis]] This is a letter from a female employee of John Lewis's Cheadle branch. John Lewis told its female employees that they have to share toilets and locker rooms with trans identifying men. The employee says this is having a terrible effect especially on colleagues who have experienced trauma relating to men or who have religious reasons to not want to share a space with someone who is the opposite sex.

MontagueMoo · 30/08/2024 11:04

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 10:56

This a familiar pattern however. Brands that have lost their way a bit, embracing the trans cause without (seemingly) thinking about the impact on their most important customer base. It's a pattern we've seen played out with Bud Lite, The Body Shop. Looks like a similar trajectory here.

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Anheuser-Busch, which owns Bud Lite, has been steadily increasing in share price since 2022. And frankly I'm not sure having one transgender person in an advert is "embracing the trans cause". Trans people are allowed to be in adverts.

The Body Shop failed because, to put it simply, it remained stuck in the 1990s and completely failed to adapt to the modern era, and so was massively outstripped by competitors like Lush.

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 11:14

MontagueMoo · 30/08/2024 11:04

Anheuser-Busch, which owns Bud Lite, has been steadily increasing in share price since 2022. And frankly I'm not sure having one transgender person in an advert is "embracing the trans cause". Trans people are allowed to be in adverts.

The Body Shop failed because, to put it simply, it remained stuck in the 1990s and completely failed to adapt to the modern era, and so was massively outstripped by competitors like Lush.

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The Bud Lite brand is destroyed. AB InBev have lots of other brands, it's not a company issue, it's a brand issue.

I don't think Dylan Mulvaney was the right person to front the brand. Just for accuracy, he wasn't in an ad, he endorsed as an influencer.

Yes the BS was in decline already, that's exactly my point. Alienating a core customer base was a very dumb move in the circs.

Proudtobeanortherner · 30/08/2024 11:20

Newbie8918 · 29/08/2024 19:44

@AccidentallyWesAnderson and that's where we disagree. I do see them as women.

Happy to disagree. I know it's an emotive subject.

At the risk of derailing this thread, I am genuinely curious. How and why do you see them as women? Perhaps more importantly, why does the risk that some of them pose to women not matter to you? If we continue down this path, how will you protect women’s religious beliefs, those in prison, changing areas, sport, etc, etc. etc from them? The predatory element amongst them may be small but it is a real and proven risk. Do the women in those situations really not matter to you?

MontagueMoo · 30/08/2024 11:21

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 11:14

The Bud Lite brand is destroyed. AB InBev have lots of other brands, it's not a company issue, it's a brand issue.

I don't think Dylan Mulvaney was the right person to front the brand. Just for accuracy, he wasn't in an ad, he endorsed as an influencer.

Yes the BS was in decline already, that's exactly my point. Alienating a core customer base was a very dumb move in the circs.

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Just for accuracy, he wasn't in an ad, he endorsed as an influencer

But still, how is this "embracing the trans cause"? He's certainly not the only influencer they work with. To be honest I think the backlash against Bud Lite is rampant homophobia/transphobia from their core American conservative market, because they just don't like seeing a trans person in media. It's certainly nothing to celebrate IMO.

Yes the BS was in decline already, that's exactly my point. Alienating a core customer base was a very dumb move in the circs

But you can't exactly claim that it failed because it was actively supporting trans people.

Chersfrozenface · 30/08/2024 11:24

As we're on the subject of Lush, another GI captured brand, it is mostly privately owned so share price is not really relevant

In the financial year up to June 2023 it posted a pre-tax loss of £28.1m compared to a £3.3m profit in the previous FY. Results for the following year are not yet available as far as I can see.

Petitchat · 30/08/2024 11:24

SoundTheSirens · 30/08/2024 10:25

Let’s take this back a step. Why is there such a push for transwomen to use women’s spaces?

The official line is that they feel “unsafe” in the men’s. But there are so many issues with this claim, and the supposed solutions to it:

a) where is the epidemic of male-on-gender-nonconforming-male violence/abuse in men’s toilets and changing rooms? You think TRAs wouldn’t be making political capital out of this if it were actually happening? But there’s tumbleweed. Because it isn’t happening.

b) even if there were examples of it being reported, why is the answer for women to budge up and lose their single-sex spaces? Why is it not for men to be challenged to become more accepting of their feminine-presenting brethren? Why aren’t there more good men standing up to make their spaces safer for all men?

c) why is the “invitation” to use women’s spaces only extended to those who claim a feminine gender identity? Why not other cohorts of vulnerable men? Disabled men, effeminate gay men, men of smaller stature, teenage boys just starting to use men’s spaces alone for the first time?

d) why is a basic tenet of safeguarding being overridden? Men, as a sex class, pose a threat to women as a sex class. That’s one of the main reasons why we have single-sex spaces in the first place (the others being dignity and privacy - don’t they matter any more?) We have SSS when we are potentially bodily vulnerable, because this is about bodies, the sexes, not gender. We know that most men are decent but we keep them all out anyway - or we did, until recently - because we have no way of knowing a man’s intent until after harm has been inflicted upon a woman or child. Men have trained as doctors, dentists, teachers, priests to get close to their victims - do you really think bad actors would hesitate to claim a trans identity if it gave them access to commit a crime or to indulge their fetish? The links shared above show that it’s already happening, and I don’t know about you but for me, the number of women and girls it’s acceptable for this to happen to before we all collectively say “no, out you all go back to the gents” is not n+1 like it seems to be for others here.

If you ever find yourself falling for the excellently-spun piece of propaganda that this is the most marginalised, powerless, discriminated-against minority, just pause to think what they’ve achieved here: removing women’s single sex spaces, bending language (“preferred pronouns”), being centred in corporate campaigns and messaging. As a disability activist, I can only watch in awe as TRAs achieve 500% of our gains with 10% of the effort.

How has all this come about though?

Sex is a fact.
Gender is a thought.

How and why is the world changing because of a "thought"?

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 11:30

MontagueMoo · 30/08/2024 11:21

Just for accuracy, he wasn't in an ad, he endorsed as an influencer

But still, how is this "embracing the trans cause"? He's certainly not the only influencer they work with. To be honest I think the backlash against Bud Lite is rampant homophobia/transphobia from their core American conservative market, because they just don't like seeing a trans person in media. It's certainly nothing to celebrate IMO.

Yes the BS was in decline already, that's exactly my point. Alienating a core customer base was a very dumb move in the circs

But you can't exactly claim that it failed because it was actively supporting trans people.

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On Bud lite, he was not the right person to front the brand. Very simple. They can't blame their customers for that, they should have been more in tune with them. Id they had wanted to open these customers minds, there were much better ways to do so and much better people to work with. The fucked up massively.

With BS, alienating their core base felt like the final nail in their coffin.

Anyway, did you read the letter? What would your response to this woman be?

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 11:31

Petitchat · 30/08/2024 11:24

How has all this come about though?

Sex is a fact.
Gender is a thought.

How and why is the world changing because of a "thought"?

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I know right?

With literally no consultation or engagement with women. But we're all bigots for not playing along apparently. 🙄

MontagueMoo · 30/08/2024 11:44

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 11:30

On Bud lite, he was not the right person to front the brand. Very simple. They can't blame their customers for that, they should have been more in tune with them. Id they had wanted to open these customers minds, there were much better ways to do so and much better people to work with. The fucked up massively.

With BS, alienating their core base felt like the final nail in their coffin.

Anyway, did you read the letter? What would your response to this woman be?

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I agree he was not the right person to front the brand. That doesn't mean I have to agree with the reasons why he was not the right person (i.e. embedded homophobia/transphobia in the core market.

With BS, it may have felt like that to you, but it wasn't. Body Shop would not be alive and kicking today if their stance on the matter had been otherwise. They needed wholesale rebranding and a new business strategy.

I have read the letter. Not being management at JL nor equipped with their side of the story, I am unable to advise on how to respond to her.

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · 30/08/2024 11:53

AutumnalAmersham · 30/08/2024 09:14

There's no way I'm boycotting John Lewis! However, I am a firm believer in direct action so I would always recommend that if you see a man in a woman's space, to raise your voice and state that fact. Leave the toilet immediately and report it to a member of staff that there is a man in the ladies' toilet, that you feel scared to use that space, and that they need to provide you with a safe space immediately otherwise you will need to urinate where you stand. Write to the manage of the store and to the CEO telling them there was a man in the ladies' toilet. Do all these things and more. A few women boycotting JL won't dent their sales at all. More and more women creating havoc through direct action will be a right pain the ass for them to deal with on a daily basis.

As an employee yes but as a customer does the store need to provide you with a toilet?
it is getting harder and harder to find toilets when out and about and we don’t want to discourage places from providing them if they don’t have a legal obligation to do so.

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 11:55

I agree he was not the right person to front the brand. That doesn't mean I have to agree with the reasons why he was not the right person (i.e. embedded homophobia/transphobia in the core market.

Im definitely not BL's core market. But I don't see Dylan as anything more than an offensive caricature of 'womanhood'. Does that make me transphobic? Totally happy to own that if so.

With BS, it may have felt like that to you, but it wasn't. Body Shop would not be alive and kicking today if their stance on the matter had been otherwise. They needed wholesale rebranding and a new business strategy.

If they'd gone after something else, perhaps they would still be here. Who knows. They chose to put their energies into this however and yes, I firmly believe that cost them.

I have read the letter. Not being management at JL nor equipped with their side of the story, I am unable to advise on how to respond to her.

As a human being though, responding to another human being. How do you feel about the points she makes? Do you get them? Do you have sympathy? Or are you going to call her transphobic too?

parkrun500club · 30/08/2024 11:55

ssd · 30/08/2024 08:57

There's no money to do this

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I'm sure they could find it if they wanted to.

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · 30/08/2024 11:57

Dumbledoreslemonsherbets · 30/08/2024 09:27

It's also not lying and deceiving customers if they have a gender neutral / mixed sex space, clearly labelled. If you label a space 'woman's' but in reality someone like 6ft 5 male bodied Dolatowski is allowed in, that means parents will send children in there alone, something they wouldn't do if they knew someone like Dolatowski was allowed in. There is no way I'd send my daughter into a mixed sex toilet alone but when I could trust retailers, I might have into a woman's only toilet. Sadly, I've totally lost trust as I know 'women's' these days is usually a lie- and they've also lost my business. It's not informed consent. It's deception.

There are plenty of independent retailers run by women who know the basics of biology and safeguarding, I'd recommend all women who control their family's finances, as I do, start investing there instead.

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But surely even if the door says women only that doesn’t mean a man hasn’t gone in there? If a man pretends to be woman just so he can attack a woman then he is probably also the sort of person who would just go in to the women’s toilet as a man to attack a woman.

Nomorewindchimes · 30/08/2024 12:40

MontagueMoo · 30/08/2024 11:44

I agree he was not the right person to front the brand. That doesn't mean I have to agree with the reasons why he was not the right person (i.e. embedded homophobia/transphobia in the core market.

With BS, it may have felt like that to you, but it wasn't. Body Shop would not be alive and kicking today if their stance on the matter had been otherwise. They needed wholesale rebranding and a new business strategy.

I have read the letter. Not being management at JL nor equipped with their side of the story, I am unable to advise on how to respond to her.

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The Body Shop has had to close almost half it's stores. A large reason for that is their hatred of women. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8410319/Angry-Twitter-users-threaten-BOYCOTT-Body-Shop.html

Angry Twitter users threaten to BOYCOTT The Body Shop

The Body Shop advised author J.K Rowling to educate herself about transgender rights in a Twitter post, just hours after she posted an essay about women's rights and gender identity.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8410319/Angry-Twitter-users-threaten-BOYCOTT-Body-Shop.html

GailBlancheViola · 30/08/2024 12:51

much more logical to have a 3rd space for men who identify as women and anyone else who fancies being in there

I'd bet, despite all the I am not bothered, I'm happy to share with TW claims by some posters on here they wouldn't use the third space with the TW, they would go in the single sex female space. What seems to be required by them and the extreme TRAs is women who don't consent, it is not about provision of facilities it is about power and control, removing safety, dignity and privacy from women especially those who say no to this. It is misogyny pure and simple.

On the subject of how many women and girls being harmed or excluded before some would re-think their stance one poster helpfully said 100s before they would consider that they were wrong, which is nice and ever so kind.

Petitchat · 30/08/2024 12:51

LiquoriceAllsorts2 · 30/08/2024 11:57

But surely even if the door says women only that doesn’t mean a man hasn’t gone in there? If a man pretends to be woman just so he can attack a woman then he is probably also the sort of person who would just go in to the women’s toilet as a man to attack a woman.

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Yes, but why make it even easier for them?

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 12:58

Petitchat · 30/08/2024 12:51

Yes, but why make it even easier for them?

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Not just this, but we used to be able to get men like this removed from female spaces. Now we can't, because that would be 'transphobic'.

I've even seen posters from US colleges, telling girls that they shouldn't walk out if they feel uncomfortable when men enter female spaces. It's not kind/affirming apparently.

We're asking women to disregard their own safety for men's whims.

Aroastdinnerisnotahumanright · 30/08/2024 13:09

TurtlesDoNotPetsMake · 29/08/2024 17:34

DF would be homeless if it wasn't for John Lewis. He worked for them for 20yrs and they have been amazing.

Well he's a man isn't he.

Nomorewindchimes · 30/08/2024 13:23

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 12:58

Not just this, but we used to be able to get men like this removed from female spaces. Now we can't, because that would be 'transphobic'.

I've even seen posters from US colleges, telling girls that they shouldn't walk out if they feel uncomfortable when men enter female spaces. It's not kind/affirming apparently.

We're asking women to disregard their own safety for men's whims.

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Exactly. Being told to go against everything we'd been taught since we were little girls.

CutthroatDruTheViolent · 30/08/2024 13:31

TurtlesDoNotPetsMake · 29/08/2024 17:34

DF would be homeless if it wasn't for John Lewis. He worked for them for 20yrs and they have been amazing.

Wouldn't anyone be homeless if they didn't ever work?

Scammersarescum · 30/08/2024 14:42

Shadyshady · 29/08/2024 18:36

I will continue to shop at JL...those female employees are strong and capable and don't need my support to fight for themselves. I have my own drum to bang.

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How do you know they're strong? They could be very very vulnerable.

What an odd assumption

IDontHateRainbows · 30/08/2024 14:45

CutthroatDruTheViolent · 30/08/2024 13:31

Wouldn't anyone be homeless if they didn't ever work?

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No, plenty of people have family or inherited wealth.

TheKeatingFive · 30/08/2024 14:45

Scammersarescum · 30/08/2024 14:42

How do you know they're strong? They could be very very vulnerable.

What an odd assumption

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If the poster had read the letter they'd see that this is discussed at length. We should not assume these women don't need our help.

Scammersarescum · 30/08/2024 14:46

DadJoke · 29/08/2024 18:55

The rules about trans women in loos apply equally to partners and customers, and this is true in all high street retailers.

I read it. It all boils down to “exclude trans women from women’s loos,” without straightforwardly coming out and saying it.

Perhaps if you could link to a neutral source which explains the subtext of this letter, it might help.

Edited

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Be honest.

You can just call it excluding men.

Because that is what we want and that is what biological women deserve.

Safety from the men who rape, maim and murder us.

Yes even the ones that wear dresses and lippy while they hurt actual women.

mrshoho · 30/08/2024 14:51

Fuck you John Lewis. I'll give your company the same level of respect you have chosen to give your female employees and customers.