To call out friend on 'body positivity' delusion?

[treesandflowers95]

My bestie (i'll call her 'J') and I have been friends since primary school. She's godmother to my DD and we almost see each other as sisters as friends.

J has always been a curvier girl but as we've gone through our 20s, she's steadily put on more and more weight. She's 5ft 2 and now a size 30. Over the last couple of years its been noticeable how much into the 'body positivity' movement shes got. Her socials are full of shared posts about it, and she'll often bring it up in conversation.

Its not something i've ever really made an issue of with her before as though it worries me for her, i've always been of the view that everybody's body is their own business.

However we were on a hen do a few weeks ago, and honestly it was a real eye opener to just how big she's got and the impact that's starting to have on her health. The first one for me was that she needed a seatbelt extender on the flight and she seemed to think it was hilarious. We stayed in a villa on the edge of a little area with a strip of bars and restaurants. It was 350yds (i put it into Google maps) and slightly downhill on the way there and uphill on the way back, but nothing major. J was struggling to keep up with us on the way there, and on the way back was having to stop at least once because she was so out of breath. Bear in mind this was a group of girls quite a few in heels etc so its not like we were sprinting, and shes sweating and bright red. Aside from that, even basic stuff round the villa like walking upstairs (it was over 3 floors) and she struggled climbing up and down the ladders in and out of the pool. I didnt say anything to her at the time but its played on my mind.

This weekend there were four of us (all close friends) who'd been on the hen do out for drinks in the pub. We were talking about the hen do and i can't remember how it came up, but she started talking about the walk back to the villa and how steep the hill was etc. I said to her something along the lines of 'Oh it wasn't that bad' to which she replied 'Are you joking, it was so steep!' and was basically trying to get the other girls to agree and I just left it.

A bit later in the conversation she was talking about some body positivity stuff and how its about how you look after yourself and not how much you weigh. I've bit my tongue at stuff like this loads of times, but this time i said 'I think that's true to an extent but there's a point where you can't argue that you're healthy'. She didn't look happy and said 'what are you saying?'. I basically said that the fact she thought that walk on holiday was so difficult that she should have struggled with it so much was worrying, and might suggest her health wasn't as good as she seems to think it is. The reality is (and I didn't say this to her) that she eats really badly and drinks quite a lot. She spends loads on hair, make up, nails, etc which she considers as looking after herself.

She got really frosty with me, and has been funny in texts since, not her usual self, so i know i've annoyed her.

Fully accept it may not have been the best way to bring it up especially in front of others (but it wasnt like it was strangers, we're all mates back to primary school) but i just felt like it wasn't a time where i could just say nothing in the moment.

So i guess question is AIBU to have brought this up with her, and any advice on how to handle things next.

the thing is (only quoting your post because you were first, lots of others have said the same thing), in OP's case I don't think her friend does know how unhealthy it is.

Skinny doesn't equal healthy and fat doesn't equal unhealthy. I know obese people who can run half marathons no problem and skinny people who couldn't catch a bus. Look at the Olympics and some of the female rugby players for example, one of them posted a lot on insta, one about how her BMI was technically obese but she's an olympic athlete. That is what 'body positivity' should be - accepting 'healthy' bodies come in all shapes and sizes, and even 'unhealthy' bodies are attractive and can lead equally full and happy lives.

But some BP take it too far, it's almost like the pro-anorexia groups in the 90s - it's almost like a cult where people are in an echo chamber telling each other they are fine and the media/everyone else is wrong and exaggerating. Because it's mainly cheerful, well-groomed people in their 20s/30s, who can live a comparatively normal life now, despite being (in some cases) hugely overweight they are completely unaware of the huge health issues they will have in ten, twenty, thirty years.

The fact that OPs friend equates self care to having her nails and hair done rather than eating healthily and undertaking exercise you enjoy, not for the purpose of losing weight,

The purpose of BP is to show that bigger people can still lead as full, fun, happy lives as slim people. OP's friend can't do that - she's reframing the truth (I couldn't walk at a slow pace up a slight incline) to 'they expected me to sprint up a massive hill, of course nobody could be expected to do that, there's nothing wrong with me.'

I'm not trying to be patronising, most BP people absolutely do understand their weight is unhealthy but some absolutely have buried their head in the sand to such a degree that they really don't comprehend it, or at least not to the full extent - they understand 'yeah I'm not as healthy as my marathon runner mate,' but not 'I am putting so much strain on my body that my life expectancy is drastically shortened.'

I still don't think that commenting when you were with others was necessarily the right thing to do - all the others were with you on the holiday so they knew it wasn't a steep incline and the reason she struggled was because she is very obese, so you didn't necessarily need to declare it, discussing it with her in private probably would have gone down better.

All those saying she must know she likely has a lifestyle that doesn’t push outside comfort zone. If she drives everywhere, sedentary job it’s very easy not to realise how unfit you are.
She was perhaps talking about it because she was trying to convince herself it wasn’t her but the big hill/steep stairs etc.

@lemonpepperlady you made me cry.

A addict shows similar behaviour. Well done to your friend, well done to you.

It doesn’t matter why someone is overweight the risks are exactly the same

Nobody ever says this!

“It’s not my fault I’m fat”. It doesn’t matter you’ll still get diabetes, heart disease etc.

And I say this as someone who has to work really fucking hard to not be obese but I do work at it because I want to keep my health and mobility into old age.

@Blueberryjamming Yikes, that's scary

Somebody wearing size 30, barely able to manage a short walk is unhealthy. That’s a fact. This woman is in no way comparable to muscly athletes with falsely high BMIs or larger women able to run half marathons.

Agree with your message, disagree with the context of your delivery.

You’ve embarrassed her and owe her an apology. A sensitive conversation like this needs to be held in private, although I believe you have her best interests at heart.

All those saying she must know she likely has a lifestyle that doesn’t push outside comfort zone. If she drives everywhere, sedentary job it’s very easy not to realise how unfit you are

Exactly. Not everyone does realise it. I've seen many people post about how they had no idea how far their weight had got out of control until they saw a candid photo of themselves and then were shocked. Or, they got on the scales and were shocked- because it's like the boiling frog analogy- when it creeps up incrementally you dont see it. It's like how you dont notice how tall your own children are getting day to day but others who haven't seen them in a while notice.

Equally with being unfit- if you get taxis or drive everywhere and dont spend any time walking it's quite shocking when you do it to realise. Not everyone is aware- people dont realise just how strong denial can be when its psychologically motivated.

@treesandflowers95 This could be a good way to repair the relationship with your friend. I hope she finds her own way to gain a healthier lifestyle. It’s great that she has friends that really love her.

I have put on a lot of weight. Right now, for me, I am trying to focus on gaining a healthy lifestyle, eating more fruits and vegetables, increasing my exercise and activity, rather than losing weight, eating less etc. This is my way of of being positive. Body positivity for me is reminding myself that my body is amazing and deserves to be looked after and given all the nutrients it needs.

I just want to add on the point about suggesting we go for little walks....when DD was first born we did do that for a bit, she'd come walking with me and DD in her pram. The first few weeks it was regular, two or three times a week, but then quite quickly died off. She did struggle a bit then being unfit but not like now but then i'm not surprised by that considering how much more weight she's put on since then.

I do still suggest stuff like coming to the park with us but its very rare she does these days.

I'd also say i don't think she's in denial about how "big" she is. She describes herself as a "big girl" etc. I do think shes in denial about how much that impacts her, especially her health.

I didn't think raising it with her in front of others was the best way to do this. I can see why you did, but it's clear you upset her (probably upset/hurt not annoyed) and it's understandable that she would have felt embarrassed and humiliated. Do you think that apologizing for that would help?

Regarding body positivity, I'm ambivalent. Of course it's not healthy to be very overweight and drink too much alcohol. But it's better to be very overweight and do regular exercise (better cardio fitness, building muscle etc) than to be very overweight and not exercise at all. When someone is overweight, healthy diet and exercise are often recommended as aids to weight loss. But actually, if the goal is feeling healthier or getting stronger and having fun moving your body, that can help someone build a better relationship with food and movement (possibly with the secondary outcome of weight loss) in a more sustainable way than if exercise feels like punishment for being fat or seems pointless if it doesn't immediately lead to weight loss.

Is there a way that you could use your friend's attachment to body positivity to help her make small changes that might help with her health - like trying a new sport, or going to a dance or yoga class?

I think it must be hard for someone that size to navigate life..but there comes a point where it's dangerous to health. You were telling her you were worried as a friend, she's not a stranger. Maybe you should have fone it 1-1?
Foid addiction and disorders are very real though and someone who has a food addiction has to wear their addiction all the time, no hiding. Whether you attribute it to laziness or greed doesn't matter, she has to live in that body all of the time and she may have been caught up in body positivity because she feels accepted

You sound like a caring person, but I would drop it from now on.

I was fully on board with the body positivity thing until I started learning more about weight loss medication. The truth is, somebody your friend's size has a tiny, tiny, almost non-existent chance of making a meaningful and lasting change to her weight on her own. This is statistically true and she'll probably know this. So what are your options? Surgery, or medication or acceptance.

I ended up choosing weight loss medication but until that point I had decided I didn't want a gastric band and therefore I would try my best to accept and embrace myself.

Your friend will know exactly how her weight affects her life, she'll think about it everyday.

Edit: just wanted to add that the well-meaning fussing of my friends and family made me feel like I was failing them, on top of everything else.

You have asked if you are being unreasonable. Yet you are dismissing all of the replies that suggest you were. People are accepting and understanding that you are concerned, but saying what you said can only hurt your friend. It will not help her at all. If she decides to change, it will be something she comes to herself.

People do not owe you their health

if they eat/drink/smoke whatever it is their business

We have a communally funded health service which is collapsing under health conditions caused by obesity. Type 2 diabetes is one of the conditions the NHS is most worried about in terms of the cost it causes to the NHS. We are all negatively affected by obesity, whether we are obese or not.

If you think one’s health is entirely one’s own concern and only their own business, do you think obese people should eschew the NHS and fund their own health care?

I think everyone who has caused their own ill health should fund their own healthcare.

@treesandflowers95 - lots of posters are giving you a hard time but I agree with this:

“lemonpepperlady · Today 11:52
MagpiePi · Today 11:50
I think that you framed it as being concerned for her health rather than trying to shame her, and why shouldn't you be concerned? If she was drinking heavily or taking drugs or had another eating disorder like bulimia or anorexia, or had obvious mental health issues, you wouldn't be told you should leave her to sort herself out.
This. I mean there are plenty of pro-ana channels on socila media in which emaciated women justify anorexia as a lifestyle choice that's no one else's business. But I can't see a MN-er being criticised for refusing to go along with the idea that her anorexic friend's starvation-related disabilities are all fine and no big deal.

For example. If OP posted that her friend is so weakened from lack of food that she fainted going up a hill to the villa. And then later tried to laugh it off and blame the hill. No way would MN-ers be on her claling OP unreasonable for refusing to go along.”

I speak as someone who’s often been (and currently is) about 3-4 stone above my ideal weight. I know that my habits are contributing to this and I need to get a handle on it. I’m now in my mid-50s but still when I eat sensibly and exercise my weight goes down and I feel better for it.

Your friend is catastrophically overweight. It sounds like she wanted endorsement for her body positivity but it’s desperately harmful to her. She wanted you to support it but when a friend is dangerously obese, simply echoing her denial is not helping her. Indeed, if she continues as she is, she is very likely to die and to do so quite soon. As a PP said, a number of body-positive influencers have died before 40 as a direct result of being overweight. In some cases, being overweight comes from a medical condition but not usually being as massively overweight as your friend is. You know that she treats her body badly and her body reflects that. I think you were right to speak up.

Somebody that size has got issues with food and needs skilled help. You don’t get to a size 30 by having seconds at your meals.

OP, she knows she’s huge, the body positivity crap is a shield. Perhaps you could investigate counsellors who deal with food issues in your area and try again, in private. She’s lucky to have you x

@velvetcoat I think that is very true. I know for me it was a photo where I was standing side on. I was really shocked at how big I was. Also, my clothes looked too small for me. I have had to go up a couple of sizes to be comfortable and look better.

Perhaps it does feel bitter to J because in her opinion, before she got your input, here she was tackling hill regularly, getting in and out of pool which not every fat person wants to do in the company of slim people, getting up and down a three storey villa. Maybe she had germinating ideas of, well I ought to be healthier, I’ll just try and do whatever all the others are doing then perhaps in a year I’ll be fitter and slimmer.

I do hope OP you won’t beat yourself up further but you could have snorted when she said about the hill and said “Right, woman, you, me, some serious walking once a month when we get home.” Then you’ve said it and she is in control.

I don’t watch fat people get in and out of the pool. That’s the most embarrassing bit for me as a size 18 (especially out).

Wishimaywishimight's comment "I used to have a friend who prided herself on 'speaking her mind'. Before our friendship ended, she was down to her last friend (me)."

Reminded me of the quotation:

"But of all plagues, good Heaven, thy wrath can send,
Save, save, oh save me from the candid friend! "

What you think is 100pc right. I agree 100pc with your view

I'm astounded that you said it in front of others. How humiliating for her.

I referred to avoidable health issues for example diabetes (which of course has its own complications of amputations, blindness etc) , cirrhosis of the liver which can lead to death . There are really too many other diseases to mention affecting the heart, circulation and lungs, but those mentioned are diseases which are especially prevalent in people with obesity and alcohol issues. Take away the obesity and the alcoholism and these diseases become much rarer, though yes, they can occur in people with healthier lifestyles.

You were entirely wrong to do that in that way and in front of others, potentially adding to any shame she might feel and stopping her being able to talk to you about it more privately if she felt the need to confide in you. At the size she is it's clear she has a problem, but feeling positive is so important in living a good life either whilst trying to do something about that problem or just living a good life if you are unable to do something about that problem. She might feel the choice is not between fat and not fat. It might be between fat and not hating yourself and fat and hating yourself. The worst thing is for someone to start hiding away or feeling bad about themselves potentially leading to depression, which is really bad for your health. Depression can also lead to more comfort eating or binging.

At size 30 it's not like you arguing with her in front of your friends is going to make her be able to suddenly sort the situation. You do sound judgemental about what she is eating and drinking, but perhaps she is binging or has real struggles around drink or is addicted to some foods. She would probably need some real help and support to turn the cycle around. If you are really her friend, talking to her more privately would have been a lot more sensitive and leave the door open to her being able to talk to you whether now or in the future. To react the way you did was needlessly humiliating for her and probably pushed her away.

Your post also doesn't sound that empathetic with her considering she is your best friend. You sound more annoyed about her covering things over, laughing at an extender (what else was she to do, she probably felt publically humiliated by that) than you sound concerned that she is ok.

How to make it better? The person above who said to apologise and say it wasn't your place and you didn't mean to make her feel bad sounded the best response to me. It might lead to a more serious conversation where she might open up to you. You could add that you care about her loads, she's your best friend, you love her and have been feeling concerned for her and if she wants to talk to you at any point she can.

You talk a lot about weight in your post, but there are lots of body positive ideas about how people can increase health and fitness whatever your size. Could that be a more productive avenue?

A bit more empathy and sensitivity from you is needed if you want her to be more open with you.

I don’t think you’ve done anything wrong op. You are being a good friend by being honest with her. It would have been far easier to have nodded along and said nothing. You are rightly worried about her, rightly so; at size 30 she is morbidly obese.