To call out friend on 'body positivity' delusion?

[treesandflowers95]

My bestie (i'll call her 'J') and I have been friends since primary school. She's godmother to my DD and we almost see each other as sisters as friends.

J has always been a curvier girl but as we've gone through our 20s, she's steadily put on more and more weight. She's 5ft 2 and now a size 30. Over the last couple of years its been noticeable how much into the 'body positivity' movement shes got. Her socials are full of shared posts about it, and she'll often bring it up in conversation.

Its not something i've ever really made an issue of with her before as though it worries me for her, i've always been of the view that everybody's body is their own business.

However we were on a hen do a few weeks ago, and honestly it was a real eye opener to just how big she's got and the impact that's starting to have on her health. The first one for me was that she needed a seatbelt extender on the flight and she seemed to think it was hilarious. We stayed in a villa on the edge of a little area with a strip of bars and restaurants. It was 350yds (i put it into Google maps) and slightly downhill on the way there and uphill on the way back, but nothing major. J was struggling to keep up with us on the way there, and on the way back was having to stop at least once because she was so out of breath. Bear in mind this was a group of girls quite a few in heels etc so its not like we were sprinting, and shes sweating and bright red. Aside from that, even basic stuff round the villa like walking upstairs (it was over 3 floors) and she struggled climbing up and down the ladders in and out of the pool. I didnt say anything to her at the time but its played on my mind.

This weekend there were four of us (all close friends) who'd been on the hen do out for drinks in the pub. We were talking about the hen do and i can't remember how it came up, but she started talking about the walk back to the villa and how steep the hill was etc. I said to her something along the lines of 'Oh it wasn't that bad' to which she replied 'Are you joking, it was so steep!' and was basically trying to get the other girls to agree and I just left it.

A bit later in the conversation she was talking about some body positivity stuff and how its about how you look after yourself and not how much you weigh. I've bit my tongue at stuff like this loads of times, but this time i said 'I think that's true to an extent but there's a point where you can't argue that you're healthy'. She didn't look happy and said 'what are you saying?'. I basically said that the fact she thought that walk on holiday was so difficult that she should have struggled with it so much was worrying, and might suggest her health wasn't as good as she seems to think it is. The reality is (and I didn't say this to her) that she eats really badly and drinks quite a lot. She spends loads on hair, make up, nails, etc which she considers as looking after herself.

She got really frosty with me, and has been funny in texts since, not her usual self, so i know i've annoyed her.

Fully accept it may not have been the best way to bring it up especially in front of others (but it wasnt like it was strangers, we're all mates back to primary school) but i just felt like it wasn't a time where i could just say nothing in the moment.

So i guess question is AIBU to have brought this up with her, and any advice on how to handle things next.

This really worries me. Body Positivity is so not supposed to be about denying health risks. When I was at my fattest, I turned down the offer of going wild swimming on a hot day with four friends who were all very slim. I made some excuse and then sat and sobbed on my own inside while the sun shone and they posted photos of their river swim. It was a turning point for me. I decided on that day never to miss out on something I'd love to do because of shame about my body.

After that I forced myself to think positively about my body by finding clothes I liked, and by developing an attitude that being fat should not stop me from getting fit again. I started training and joined yoga classes. It was very hard, being surrounded by women who were all slimmer than me. But it was way better than missing out through shame. And the stronger and fitter I got, the easier it was. I even went swimming and hiking with a recovering anorexic friend who has a real phobia of fatness. I could tell she was horrified by my body but I wasn't. To me, that is body positivity. Accepting my body at its fattest and freeing it to be active, and developing a secure fondness for it, even in the company of someone who struggled with it.

But kidding yourself that it is fine to get fatter and fatter until you can't tackle even the most basic exercise in your twenties - there is nothing positive about that and a good, brave friend has a duty to challenge this.

OP, I think you need to think about what your intentions were in that moment. Were you trying to help or prove her wrong. This is such a tricky subject, but if you needed to bring it up from a place of caring, I think in private and more thoughtfully would have been kinder. I think you should apologize and let her know you are there for her whatever she decides to do.

@Meadowwild what a wonderful post. This is what body positivity should be all about, encouraging women to feel comfortable AND healthy, not an excuse to spiral into morbid obesity.

As someone who was once terrified to do any exercise in public for fear of being too bony and ugly I thank you.

For anyone wondering about the toxic nature of "plus size body positivity" online,, just look up Tess Holliday's account. This is the equivalent of pro-anorexia propaganda. It's dangerous, and wrong, and I dare say terribly offensive to those who are actually discriminated against for reasons beyond their control.

Morbid obesity is not healthy. It's just not. Why are we pretending it is?!

That would be a fantastic bonus, not going to lie.

You could empathetically contact her, apologizing for hurting her feelings, while explaining that it was a clumsy way to tell her you are worried about her well-being. I’m sure she knows that. obesity can lead to life-threatening conditions and may prevent her from fully enjoying life.

Oh God this is my biggest ick. I’m big myself i’m size 18 but i realise i’m not healthy and willing to change. I join gym and eeally enjoynit and change my diets. Keanwhile my sister, she is 130kg and really struggling to walk. Cant even take a shower herself and needs my mum to help her. And she is soo into body positivity. Body positivity its a shit way to hide your insecurities. I’m sorry but this is really trigger me, i really have bad relationships with my sister rightnow because i keep saying that she needs to change and stop with the body positivity bullshit.

Body positivity is going to kill a lot of fat people. No one is allowed to have their feelings hurt, but avoidable heart disease, diabetes and joint pain are perfectly acceptable. Social media draws people together with a common problem, and between them they normalise it, and we end up with bo**ks like body positivity which resolves nothing but does perpetuate a serious problem (anorexia, self-harm, obesity, all-sorts-of-body-dysmorphia, porn, paedophilia - take your pick). Try to get your friend away the SM so-called support groups, and into something that might have a more positive outcome. Otherwise it's likely to be a downward spiral for her. Good luck.

we end up with boks like body positivity which resolves nothing but does perpetuate a serious problem (anorexia, self-harm, obesity, all-sorts-of-body-dysmorphia, porn, paedophilia - take your pick)

You seriously can’t be equating the first four things in your list with paedophilia?

Ah that’s good. I would just say that it came from a place where you were worried about her, and you’re here if she ever needs you. But leave it at that.

I'm glad your friend agreed to meet up with you @treesandflowers95 and hope your conversation goes well.

She KNOWS she's overweight
She KNOWS its affecting her health

But that doesn't mean she should be ashamed of her body. If the way she's impacted by it doesn't motivate change, that's her own choice being lectured will only make her feel like you don't respect her, and probably make her even more resistant to change.

You might not be able to change her mindset, but she has a right to be comfortable with herself. Health isn't the parameter by which we should be respected.

You'd be better off trying to get her to go swimming with you, or spend a long day in town shopping together.

I've not read the whole thread but I think you were dead right to say something to her. If she continues in the same way you say she has, continually getting bigger it won't be long before she potentially has serious health problems.

Size 30 at 5'2 is problematic and we all know that.

I appreciate this is an incredibly sensitive subject however when it veers into health territory only a friend can do what's right.

I think that since she raises the issue herself frequently (body positivity and mentioning again the walk even after the holiday) and has responded in this way, she's probably quite sensitive about it. It sounds like you responded to her comment naturally and honestly, as you would with any other topic. Even if you're careful with your language and talk about fitness rather than weight, she may take any comments as a personal attack.

It sounds like what you're getting at is not about aesthetics at all, it's genuine concern for her health. We know that women benefit greatly from prioritising being strong, having good bone density etc rather than trying to lose weight/ look a certain way. There's a newish idea that we should think about healthspan as well as lifespan, i.e how much of our lives are healthy years, and start thinking about this in early adulthood. You're already seeing your friend struggle in what should be her prime adult years, and you're wondering what her older life may look like.

If your friend mentions things she's struggling with then it's not fair to expect you to pretend (if you walked up the hill easily then say that or say nothing, don't say you found it a struggle if you didn't) . I would suggest that when you speak to her you reiterate that you didn't want to upset her. That when she said xxx your response was what you felt was true. Perhaps she disagrees. That's fine. The important thing is that you are both able to trust that you care for each other and any differences of opinion are not signs of anything else.

Btw Peter Attia has done a lot to publicise this area. Basically all of us, even Olympic level athletes will lose muscle, balance, flexibility etc in older age - and the loss occurs at a pretty predictable level. If you have high levels of muscle / fitness during your early adult life then you can decline for years and still be within the range where you can be active/ live at home etc. Lower starting levels means there's less spare capacity to lose before heading towards physical disability.

He has done research on longevity goals i.e. "if you want to be able to do x at a future age (e.g 80 etc) you need to be able to do y at your current age". X being the sort of things that keep you living at home like being able to climb stairs, get out of a chair, reach into a cupboard... Y usually being surprisingly high levels of fitness.

I think what the poster meant was related to the bit earlier in her post- that people with a shared problem find each other online and then they can help each other or minimise and normalise the shared issue. So as a group they can come up with an ideology "society thinks we have a problem but they don't understand us..." leading to pro-anorexia sites, those sites where people persuade others to commit suicide etc. I. E. Just because it's a popular online movement doesn't mean it's right.

I don't think you were projecting body NEGATIVITY onto her at all. You just pointed out that she's not fit enough to walk 350 yards up a slight incline. I assume you didn't say, "You couldn't get up the hill because you're far too fat!"?
It would probably have been better to mention it in a private conversation, if at all, but these things never tend to go well, because the person feels attacked and ashamed. I appreciate that she brought the subject up, and after years of saying nothing, maybe it was inevitable that someone might mention the health aspect, in response to it.

Everyone deserves to feel good about themselves. Full stop. People who are fat contend with a lot of rudeness. Which is cruel and unnecessary. Sadly some people can only feel good about themselves by finding someone else to pull down. Other people have their own screwed up relationships with food which they act out on others. Being positive about yourself at any size is key to health and ultimately taking responsibility for change and growth. Being unhealthy, in any respect, is undesirable, but something most of us navigate in one form or another for at least some of our lives. Kindness helps. Judgement not so much.

I don't think that doing this in front of others was the right way. But neither do I think you should encourage your friend to deny what she undoubtedly knows, so now you've broached it, maybe it's time for a serious, private talk. Somehow she needs to come to her own decision to do something about a problem that will eventually kill her.
I fear body positivity is anything but and a whole generation of women (and it is mostly women isn't it?) will face the consequences one day. It’s great to boost self esteem but at what cost? I have always been overweight, except when dieting. I was never very big but obviously big enough to develop type 2 diabetes in my 50s. I'm in my 70s now. I take medication to control the condition but my life expectancy is inevitably reduced. Your friend needs to find something else to be positive about and shed some weight. Sooner rather than later.

@Femme2804 are you sure there isn't anything else physically going on with your sister ? I weigh slightly more than her, am probably significantly older too and have no issues with walking or climbing in and out of the bath to have a shower ?

I think it depends. Your comment was fair in this instance and i dont think you were harsh. Just give her time, facts are facts and she needs a dose of reality too.

Im fat and i im honest about it. However there are those of us who are size 22, run, eat healthy and drink very very rarely. Its possible for ppl to be fat and it be biological and for some body positivity helps them mental health wise.

Its not my thing but i find it bloody hard when i gain weight despite doing everything right. My gp has said theres definitely something biological but ive been waiting for a referal to come through for 18 months.

YANBU. I disagree that you should keep quiet . If you had a person that was alcoholic, into drugs, etc people close to them will try and intervene But somehow if people are literally killing themselves with food you are supposed to smile and nod when they say it is all fine?
And many people are in denial about the damage they are doing to themselves.
I was just 10 Kilos overweight and was getting joint pain.

I'm sure there is something biological that makes you, and others, much more susceptible to gaining weight and to struggling to lose it.

However, if we look at even recent history we can see that there is something in our modern lifestyle that is leading to the across-the-board rise in obesity.

If you invented a time machine and transported yourself back 500 years (or hey, all the way back to hunter-gatherer times) then surely you would lose weight?

I was obese myself and the only way I have ever lost weight is by completely changing my lifestyle. Cooking everything from scratch from raw ingredients and only drinking water and black coffee.

I luckily had enough time to do that, which definitely not everyone does, but just eating smaller portions (of often ultra-processed food) and exercising was not enough to shift my weight. It is for some people, but for others only radical change is enough.

My thoughts too. I also don’t understand people who have friendships where apparently they are never allowed to disagree and have to nod and smile and say yes to literally whatever their friend is saying. Thats not friendship in my eyes. You can be honest but kind at the same time, it’s not either/or.

I appreciate my friends actually having their own views on topics. I don’t want a smiling nodding stepford friend who meekly agrees with everything I say. What kind of ridiculous “friend” is that?

There def can be reasons that make it substantially more difficult for some people to lose weight then others. I struggled for years with all kinds of diet and exercise, it turned out I had problems with hormones and vitamin deficiencies and when I sorted those the weight dropped off.

YANBU though OP. Its hard watching somebody struggle with their health, esp if its caused by preventable actions and they are in denial. Body positivity is a weird one as well as the premise of loving yourself no matter what you look like is sound but it shouldnt come at the expense of your health or longevity.
I would def say something....probably often! But then I dont have any friends or family who dont know I have zero filter and am brutally honest.
I dont think there is anything wrong with trying to encourage somebody to be more healthy, maybe you could suggest tracking steps together or more fresh foods?

This!

There are so many incorrect comments about what the BoPo movement is. It’s not about ‘glorifying’ fatness, it’s (very basically) about not punishing yourself for your body. Treating it with kindness because it’s worthy, nourishing it properly etc. BoPo is not just about body size either.

The original idea was of this:

“To be body positive refers to the acceptance and non-stigmatization of all bodies regardless of size, shape, skin tone, gender, or physical ability [1].”

So where does intervention fit in this? OP didn't say: you couldn't make it up the hill because you are obese. She just pointed out a fact which was that the hill was not that tough a climb.

I don't think 'everybody deserves to feel good about themselves' when they are harming themselves. I don't think alcoholics should be encouraged to perpetuate the myth that they are life and soul of the party and every moment in life needs celebrating or commiserating with wine. I don't think obese people should feel good about harming their health nor should their friends collude with this myth.

We can decide to love our bodies as they are, in their current levels of obesity whilst recognising that truly loving them means taking care of them by nourishing them and exercising them, and dressing and pampering them. But not by binge eating as the scales tip higher and higher. There's no self love in that.