To call out friend on 'body positivity' delusion?

[treesandflowers95]

My bestie (i'll call her 'J') and I have been friends since primary school. She's godmother to my DD and we almost see each other as sisters as friends.

J has always been a curvier girl but as we've gone through our 20s, she's steadily put on more and more weight. She's 5ft 2 and now a size 30. Over the last couple of years its been noticeable how much into the 'body positivity' movement shes got. Her socials are full of shared posts about it, and she'll often bring it up in conversation.

Its not something i've ever really made an issue of with her before as though it worries me for her, i've always been of the view that everybody's body is their own business.

However we were on a hen do a few weeks ago, and honestly it was a real eye opener to just how big she's got and the impact that's starting to have on her health. The first one for me was that she needed a seatbelt extender on the flight and she seemed to think it was hilarious. We stayed in a villa on the edge of a little area with a strip of bars and restaurants. It was 350yds (i put it into Google maps) and slightly downhill on the way there and uphill on the way back, but nothing major. J was struggling to keep up with us on the way there, and on the way back was having to stop at least once because she was so out of breath. Bear in mind this was a group of girls quite a few in heels etc so its not like we were sprinting, and shes sweating and bright red. Aside from that, even basic stuff round the villa like walking upstairs (it was over 3 floors) and she struggled climbing up and down the ladders in and out of the pool. I didnt say anything to her at the time but its played on my mind.

This weekend there were four of us (all close friends) who'd been on the hen do out for drinks in the pub. We were talking about the hen do and i can't remember how it came up, but she started talking about the walk back to the villa and how steep the hill was etc. I said to her something along the lines of 'Oh it wasn't that bad' to which she replied 'Are you joking, it was so steep!' and was basically trying to get the other girls to agree and I just left it.

A bit later in the conversation she was talking about some body positivity stuff and how its about how you look after yourself and not how much you weigh. I've bit my tongue at stuff like this loads of times, but this time i said 'I think that's true to an extent but there's a point where you can't argue that you're healthy'. She didn't look happy and said 'what are you saying?'. I basically said that the fact she thought that walk on holiday was so difficult that she should have struggled with it so much was worrying, and might suggest her health wasn't as good as she seems to think it is. The reality is (and I didn't say this to her) that she eats really badly and drinks quite a lot. She spends loads on hair, make up, nails, etc which she considers as looking after herself.

She got really frosty with me, and has been funny in texts since, not her usual self, so i know i've annoyed her.

Fully accept it may not have been the best way to bring it up especially in front of others (but it wasnt like it was strangers, we're all mates back to primary school) but i just felt like it wasn't a time where i could just say nothing in the moment.

So i guess question is AIBU to have brought this up with her, and any advice on how to handle things next.

Probably better not to discuss it with her but if she revisits the conversation I would say that body positivity is good in terms of feeling confident about what you look like but the reality for your health is a different matter. If she is still in her 20’s she will get away with it for a while but that size in your forties and serious health complications begin.

Body positivity for the morbidly obese is the mirror image of pro-anorexia website. Both equally damaging.

I don't think you were unkind OP. I don't understand why we have to tiptoe around obesity in a way that we don't other afflictions. We can call out excessive drinking if it's hurting our friends for example. Its hard to watch someone you care about slowly disable or kill themselves. The body positivity movement is dangerous.

well, she knows she feels very unwell just doing the most basic of stuff - climbing stairs. And she is very young also. What kind of job she does? She spends a lot of money on cosmetics and alcohol...

Yes, this was sort of my point! My friends intervened when I was just in denial, if I had been openly reposting pro-ana accounts/sharing "thinspo" ideology at every available juncture as the OP says her friend does, then what would people's reactions be?

It's just as dangerous.

Same here. I do agree that body positivity is considerably less important than being able to walk and function but that wasn't the right time or place to lose patience with her.

The general context in which fat people have to live is one in which they and their personal appearance are treated as public property. They are intruded upon, looked upon, pointed at and commented upon all the time, so they feel awkward and embarrassed, doubly so, since the fact of being fat alone already makes them stand out, feel self conscious etc.

The comments have an edge of disapproval, moral superiority and correction. 'Calling out' is like some public official address system yelling "Oi you there, you're out of order." The town crier, the night watchman, the traffic warden, the public guardian, the beadle, the clerk of works and the constable are all out and about, scrutinising and busying themselves with the fatness and the personal business of the individual.

The thread title uses this censorious rather brutal language, even invoking delusion. As if delusion is something particular to fat people and not a phenomenon that is everywhere and arguably like money, makes the world go round. People are deluded about their personal charm, their virtue and character, their talents and abilities, their worth, merit, adorableness and specialness and hold all sorts of irrational ideas, attitudes and beliefs on all subjects. It takes them far in life, to the top in politics for instance.

It isn't usual for everyone to challenge them in their daily life on their personal quality or point out their delusion. That is reserved for a rather exclusive set, chiefly fat people or religious people, meaning Christians of course. Atheists are inherently superior and can point and laugh with impunity.

While I don't deny concern on the part of a family member or friend, and it may be for the friend at the moment it happens to suggest it might be a good idea to check with the doctor as a precaution over the shortness of breath, it's best to leave it at that and in that moment, unless the friend wants to take it up and further discuss her health.

I wouldn't write earnest letters about concern or worry for her and wanting to see her live a long life. That may be excruciating for her to receive and give her the heeby jeebies as she is asked to contemplate her life. Not your business and rather presumptuous as she didn't ask you to concern yourself with it or intrude upon her. I would ring her up and arrange to meet, go for a walk or a drink and a chat and take the opportunity to assuage hurt feelings in an atmosphere of warmth and friendship.

@Abitofalark - thank you for such wise and insightful words.

A size 16 which is a bit above average is hardly comparable to a size 30 plus at 5'2" Its good your generally better though.

LunaMay her friend obviously knows she is very obese and unfit. She does not need her friend to point this out. Knowing you are obese does not mean the problem goes away.

Op hasn’t lost patience with her she says everybody waited for her repeatedly and checked she was ok. No one said anything to her on hols about her weight.
Op hasn’t confronted friend rather friend has kept pushing and she’s replied. Op was on the spot. I’m sure she’d rather friend hadn’t said anything.
You can’t just agree with people not to upset them.

Bear in mind that obesity is a choice. People don't like that fact, but it is. Like smoking, drinking, taking drugs. It is not good for your health.

It is not a positive thing to make a healthy body into an unhealthy one by overeating.

And all this body positivity at size 30 is toxic, it really is. It's enablement.

It wouldn't surprise me if the fast food/UPF industry is behind the whole movement.

I've put YANBU OP as it was really J who brought up the body positivity stuff who seem to be angling for you all to agree. You didn't play along, and maybe that's the wake up call she needs to do something about her health.

However, I do think it should have been done more privately rather than in the company of others.

For the record, it didn't to me. It came across as someone who's concerned/ upset, who's held their tongue for ages but has chosen to try and help someone confront something that's doing them harm, now they have direct experience of the reality of their day-to-day life.

As to your question, I think it's a tricky one. To be honest, as she asked you directly I think it was better to tell the truth than to lie. I'm sorry she's gone huffy about it; I don't think she should take it personally, just a fact of life that if you are morbidly obese you're more likely to have serious health problems. The NHS aren't promoting good lifestyle choices for fun...

The Body Positivity movement has provided morbidly obese people with a get out clause. No one is allowed to point out that they’re heading for multiple health conditions and early death. You are right to be concerned for your friend, but it will fall on deaf ears. She has to want to change, like any addict, but her addiction is being validated by others so it’s unlikely you’ll achieve anything.

You're right that she's not healthy but I don't think you should have said anything or made it your business 😔
I've been on the receiving end of something like that, it was horrible and I cried for about a week after (I was 16.5 stone)
I've since lost weight so maybe it worked but my I see the person differently now.

Well done OP. Us fatties are so thick and deluded that we really have no clue at all that being fat is likely to affect our health and fitness and is probably the reason we might get out of breath or struggle with physical activity.

All we need is a clever superior friend to take the time to explain this to us in simple language we can understand, and hey presto, the weight will be falling off us in no time.

Seriously, what did you hope to achieve? Do you really believe your friend is of such low intelligence she has no idea of how her weight is affecting her, and needs you to point it out? Have you considered that unless you have seriously struggled with weight yourself, you have absolutely no idea what it is like to live with obesity - the lifelong struggle; being judged by others every time you set foot outside; the embarrassment and shame; the endless frustration and despair at your repeated failure to get it under control.

Of course she laughed off needing a seatbelt extender. What else are you supposed to do when even more attention is drawn to your fatness for all those around you to see. Would you have preferred it if she'd outwardly shown that she felt humiliated and ashamed?

If you haven't lived it, you couldn't possibly understand. But you could at least try to recognise that, and not offer your unwanted comments, which are likely to have just made your friend feel even worse about herself than she probably already does, despite the outward armour of "body positivity" that helps her get through the day.

I have to disagree with your assertion that obesity is a choice. Of course it's not good for your health, but nobody sets out to become obese. If you want to compare it with drinking, then surely it's obvious that when someone starts having a few drinks they don't aspire to alcoholism. It creeps up on them and gets to the point where pressing the pause button and reversing things is close to impossible. The reasons why people become obese and, more importantly, why they stay obese, are many and complex and will never be solved by someone pointing out that you're too fat.

Or maybe the body positivity movement has provided morbidly obese people with a way to bolster their self esteem, feel valued, and feel they have as much right to exist and to live their lives as the next person without feeling or being made to feel absolutely shit about themselves.

We don't need people to "point out" that being morbidly obese is bad for our health. We are not fucking stupid. Just fat.

There was a programme about obesity on Radio 4 this morning:

"Should obesity be classed as a disease? with oncologist Karol Sikora and obesity campaigner Sarah Le Brocq"

"Across the UK, the numbers of those seriously overweight been steadily increasing, with the latest Health Survey for England reporting that 60% of the working age population (16-64-years-old) are now classed as overweight or obese.
Drugs like Ozempic and Wegovy are being used to help people lose weight but are they too expensive to fund on the NHS for something which many see as a self inflicted problem. At the same time new research show some people are genetically predisposed to gaining weight which leads others to say that the matter should be seen as a disease.
Sarah Le Brocq who founded the organisation All About Obesity is campaigning for this classification but Professor Professor Karol Sikora an oncologist who has been director of the World health organisation cancer programme thinks this would be a mistake."

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0021qpp

I agree with this; what on earth difference do you think your comment(s) will make to this woman? Do you think that they'll make her 'see the light' and change her habits? No, you'd actually have to be really arrogant to think that you have any sort of power for ascribing change to her or any other person suffering with their weight.

People who are overweight/obese know that they are. They don't need reminding of it. Everything about their body tells them, every move they make.

You don't have to agree with her body positivity, I don't agree with it but I keep my mouth shut. If somebody wants to tell me that they're overweight and healthy I say 'good for you'. There's nothing else that needs to be said and nothing that they don't already know. You've done the equivalent of putting a dunce's cap on her.

What you've specifically achieved is to take your friendship and put yourself above her. It's done. The minute that you knock a friendship out of kilter, it's a death knell. If you'd just not agreed with her about steepness of the road that would have been one thing and wouldn't have rocked the boat but, you've lectured her. You're no longer a friend, no longer a confidante about her lifestyle. That has nothing to do with her weight, just your absolute judgement.

You're entitled to judge if you like but, to what end?

Body positivity is about feeling good in your own skin and clearly your friend does which is great! There is a line however where something can/ is causing harm. This isn’t just for plus sized people, it can be those under weight which may affect overall health/ loss of periods.

i suspect you feel the same way as I do - body positivity is a great thing and I think it’s great we more variation of real women and real bodies and not just size 0 models and occasionally Sophie Dahl. However, if your choices/ weight are causing any harm or direct consequence to your health and well-being, this is a separate issue. It does not negate body positivity but is serious matter that needs to be addressed along side. I would have communicated in general terms eg - I think it’s great to see more representation and support of body positivity, however any extremes of weight loss/ gain can have serious health consequences and cannot be ignored on the basis that a person feels good in their own skin. This is your opinion and you may have to agree to disagree.

I do think calling out the specifics of her scenario is what crossed the line. I would apologise for that.

Seriously, what did you hope to achieve? Do you really believe your friend is of such low intelligence she has no idea of how her weight is affecting her, and needs you to point it out?

I've no idea how smart the OPs friend is, but she was, apparently, trying to persuade everyone that there was a steep incline which was what made her out of breath

... and if somebody/a friend had told you to stop putting your body through that, stop starving yourself, what would your response have been then? "I hadn't thought about that, ok then, I will!" That is the equivalence here.

Your scenario is talking of/disagreeing with body positivity/stating that you're not interested in the topic.

Yes and the response could have been, "I didn't find it steep" and move on to next subject.