Holiday with another family and behaviour of their ASD child

[upoutandin87]

Currently on holiday with my family and another family (old friends) they have 2 older children same age as my kids and they also now have a 6 yr old. We have holidayed with them before but not since the youngest was born. Youngest is ND (autism and suspected ADHD). My son is 15 and autistic so I know about ASD but there DD seems out of control and we can't cope with it. She swears spits hits and throws furniture if she doesn't get her own way - there is no routine and she basically gets what she wants - she slapped my DD earlier today and called her a f b because she didn't want to go in the pool with her - my friends answer to this was you cannot say no to her - if you don't do what she wants she kicks off so we have to let her do what she wants. My friends DH and 2 older kids can't cope with her so they go to the beach and take my 15 yr old with them - I prefer being by the pool so I stay with them and my DD 17. We honestly don't know what to do as our holiday is being ruined by a 7 yr old. She threw my bag in the pool yesterday and I was fuming. We are trying to do stuff without them but they seem to be constantly appearing - they never raise their voice at their DD or tell her to stop as negative language makes her worse. Last night their 15 yr old told my son that she has been permanently excluded from her primary school and she currently has no school place from September - I was aware she has had several exclusions for violence but only short term exclusions but her parents have not mentioned to us about the exclusion. My DH wants us to cut all ties with them until they start parenting their child properly. We are only 3 days in to a 10 day holiday and are tempted to fly home to get away from them. I feel so bad as I am an SEN parent myself but they won't take any advice from us about maybe having a routine and setting boundaries. I so feel for them as they are completely broken by her behaviour but I don't actually know what I can do to help.

she slapped my DD earlier today and called her a f b because she didn't want to go in the pool with her - my friends answer to this was you cannot say no to her - if you don't do what she wants she kicks off

Just remove all of yourselves from the situation. Not sure how you’re supposed to be supportive of your friend in this situation above.

This. It’s not “unkind” to have appropriate boundaries. So sick of people misunderstanding what kindness actually is.

Kindness isn’t throwing one person under the bus so everyone else can feel safe. Kindness is communicating your needs in a polite and calm way whilst respecting that person’s needs/struggles/boundaries too.

You can be supportive and kind whilst also keeping your own boundaries intact.

Kindness is not allowing any behaviour no matter how damaging it is to other people under the guise of “support”. I’m not sure how OP allowing her child to be slapped and called names is remotely “kind” to anyone in this scenario.

Also, we need t look into the future. If boundaries are not being set at this stage, what is the girl going to be like when she hits teenage years, and, even worse, adulthood. If they are given firm 'tram lines' they know what boundaries to fall back to when they frighten themselves.

I would be looking for alternative accommodation and if not be up and gone out every day first thing.
Your friends care don't care for your holiday at all.
I wouldn't be interested in seeing them again.
They are clearly very lazy parents and everyone can suck it up.
That child is paying an awful price for their lazy approach.
Protect your family from this, even if it means leaving early.

I wonder if they are in denial and blame school for her suspension and naively thought she would fair better on holiday.
I also wonder if they thought you have a dc with asd so would be able to help or wouldn't mind and therefore thought it would be a good idea and is why dad keeps leaving you and mum is seeking you out. They are maybe using you in this scenario

I agree - I have no idea but I have a lot of sympathy for parents who have to deal with issues like this. I would never judge parents struggling with a difficult child, but I also would not like seeing this sort of extreme behaviour being completely ignored or justified as normal.

Another thing kindness isn't - slapping this up online and complaining about your 'friends' poor parenting.

YANBU at all. I’m not going to comment on how they parent their SEN child as I know all children have different needs and it’s not my place to judge, but their child’s needs are not your problem. I would explain to them that you and your children are finding it difficult to cope and would like to continue to holiday separately. If changing accommodation is an option, I would also be doing that. If they’re offended by that then so be it, but you’ve spent your hard-earned money on a holiday and your children were likely looking forward to it too so it’s unfair for that to be spoilt for you.

I think mentioning it shows they have an awareness and understanding that others might not. It’s not the same as saying their experience is the same as everyone else with the same headline diagnoses.

I'll think you'll find that when in a state of complete overwhelm, one of the ways people try to cope and protect themselves, is to try limit demands and reduce intolerable sensory circumstances, sometimes by controlling others.

Yes true - but it can also be to bring about desired outcomes.

ND children are still capable of manipulation and if they understand kicking off gets the results they want they will.

Manipulation is an unhelpful word. Children are evolutionarily developed to be good at getting others to meet their needs. They absolutely have to be because they are intensely vulnerable and not useful to the group. So being ‘manipulative’ is a completely normal and natural survival skill- not a sign of something of wrong.
For most children they learn their caregivers will meet their needs (if not their wants) and that they will be kept safe and so the survival tactics reduce and only come out when children feel anxious or unsafe (why your little one may become a nightmare when mum is sick, theirs a new baby, they start school etc!).
For ND children a combination of their needs not getting met consistently because the world is less and friendly and also caregivers being less well attuned due to either their own ND, the unusual needs confusing them or social pressure means ND children often have high anxiety and low sense of safety. So their survival mechanisms are in absolute raging full swing.
Getting your child to behave can then need to look like making them feel safe.
Clearly the parents aren’t managing that at this point. But many parents of ND children take a long time to work out how to do this because typical parents really doesn’t work (and can decrease sense of safety, making behaviour worse).
PDA is ultimately about anxiety. So of course this makes it harder.

None of this means the OP needs to stay on holiday with this family. But let’s not demonise children either.

@calamarisandwich Totally agree.

Does any diagnosis excuse this behaviour?

A parent with no boundaries is a) unsafe b) not a parent.

A lack of boundaries is going to cause far more dysregulation to a child than a change in environment. How is handing power over to a child ever going to end well?

I hope your priority is to your family and their safety not your friend's feelings; someone needs to be a parent here.

I think ultimately it's obviously all very hard for the parents of the child but it isn't the problem of OPs children and they should not be having a ruined holiday and getting physically assaulted and their belongings damaged out of misplaced "kindness", and it's completely unfair of the parents to have that expectation.

Genuine question - what happens to people with PDA as adults? Does it tend to get better?

Manipulation is an unhelpful word. Children are evolutionarily developed to be good at getting others to meet their needs. They absolutely have to be because they are intensely vulnerable and not useful to the group. So being ‘manipulative’ is a completely normal and natural survival skill- not a sign of something of wrong.

It might not be helpful, but just like other children (and people) for that matter. If you get your own way each time you behave a certain way it just reinforces it. Which is probably happening here. Personally I don’t think it’s helpful to place every undesirable behaviour as a symptom or consequence or ND as it’s suggests they can’t change - the method to get there might look different than for NT children but they can change and carve new profiles for certain behaviours - ie by not making them rewarding.

This is of course going OT. But I think not taking parenting and behaviour management strategies into account is harmful for those parents doing their very best to manage and work with their children.

She's not talking about Victorian asylums or people locked away in homes in the early 20th century, she's talking about the 1980s.

friends and family, work mates and acquaintances would have spoken about such kids and their behaviours but they didn't seem to exist, at least not to the same extent they do now.

What happened to create all these ultra difficult kids? Bad parenting?

True, but behaviour management strategies take time to figure out and this child is still very young (6 or 7, OP mentions both ages so I'm not sure).

Diagnosis still seems to be in progress as OP mentions suspected ADHD. With lots of support things will hopefully improve for this family. At the moment the parents seem to be in survival mode.

A range of things which are pretty obvious when you give them some thought.

Better infant survival rates/advances in neonatal care.
Fertility treatments and the increase in maternal age.
Theres also a rising theory re industrialisation of food and our modern diet and environmental factors more generally.

Op is overwhelmed. She went on a holiday. Most people expect some downtime, relaxation or fun. But her holidays have turned out to be very stressful. Her dd has been slapped and called bitch and friend's response is we don't say no to our dd. She could have at least apologised to the slapped 15 year old girl. Her parenting might be good but she has not taken any responsibility for the pain caused to OP and her daughter, so OP is not unkind to express her frustration towards her friend. Also, why didnt friend tell op about her dd not accepting no before they all went on a holiday together?

Part of it is simply we're hearing these stories more because of SM. Everyone on this thread is now aware of this child's fairly extreme issues. In the 1980s we'd still be ignorant of them.

It's not the whole story of course, but part of the perception of it at least.

The incidence of allergies and asthma has also risen dramatically since the 80s by the way. Is poor parenting responsible for that too do you think?

The bottom line is we don't know all the reasons for these increases. Better diagnosis is part of it obviously.

Really, the cause of the chil's behaviour is irrelevant.

It's ruining OP's family holiday, and "friends" failed to give adequate forewarning of what a shared trip would be like. That's poor form and OP is justified in being angry.

The husband fucking off to the beach every day is really taking the piss. I'd call him on it.

I'm not disputing any of that, but two wrongs don't make a right.

It's your holiday and your children are being physically and mentally abused. If moving accommodation is a possibility, then do that. If not, speak to the other parents and tell them that you want to holiday separately in the same location because you don't want your children hurt by their daughter. I appreciate that it's difficult and stressful for the other family but your primary responsibility is to your own family and to keep them safe.

It’s good to ask questions, more people should ask questions! It depends on a lot of factors. Like all things ASD, demand avoidance is part of the person rather than a symptom of something, if that makes sense. My son has ADHD too. When he is medicated he is still his lovely self, but without those particular symptoms that make his life more challenging. Autism and by extension demand avoidance is part of him. I cannot even imagine who he would be if he wasn’t the autistic version of himself because that’s just who he is, if that makes any sense.

If the demand avoidant person has sufficient capacity and is supported well then there is every possibility that they will learn in time to recognise and manage the anxiety and need for control, and to recognise when they need to step away and regulate rather than losing the plot. If they don’t have that capacity then they’ll always rely on someone else to manage that for them. My son is 13 and at the moment he very much relies on others to manage his environment for him, but I have moments where I think he is starting to understand that if he wants to live in the world, go to the pool etc then he needs to recognise he’s not the only person who has needs and rights.

It’s also worth noting that there is almost zero help available for children with PDA. It’s not often diagnosed, more often thrown into an ASD diagnosis report as ‘demand avoidant traits’ and you’re on your own. I like speaking about it. The only way I knew PDA is because I once watched a TV programme where a little girl was diagnosed and it stuck with me. When I saw ‘demand avoidant’ on something related to my son I took it upon myself to read, watch, seek support from charities and implement a parenting style that works. This child’s family will likely have had no advice or support, just a piece of paper with a diagnosis and a parenting course that won’t work for their child.