It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

[Housebuyingfamily]

Birth rates are on the floor which people frame as, people would have more kids were it not for the cost of them or climate change, etc etc. But I feel like it’s now more than this. As if we have a global child-free culture that’s growing every day and it’s becoming increasingly “unfashionable” to have kids, even looked down upon.

Fair enough. There are a few posts however, like @notanotheronenow 's post that list negative after negative after negative. Something can be incredibly positive and still not be for you - I get that, which makes me wonder why the focus is on the negatives? Is it because people feel pressure to justify their choice?

Yes, this. My friendship group is broadly similar. I suffered from an abusive childhood where I was parentified and that’s a large part of why I never wanted kids, but my friends had great childhoods and just view the whole business as tiresome and unattractive. They don’t enjoy the company of children and raising them would be incompatible with the lives they’ve designed for themselves.

I wish we could get away from the narrative that you’re only childfree because something went wrong growing up. It reminds me of the narrative that you’re only a lesbian because you’re scared of men, or because a man hurt you.

It's a cost issue we have moved away from family supporting family, one income families to paying childcare.

Because for some people there aren’t positives? And they’ll explain that when people enquire as to why they don’t want children?

There’s things that people absolutely adore that I can’t see the positives of beyond ‘it makes that person happy’, but appreciating that it’s a positive for someone else, and being happy for them that it is, doesn’t mean it becomes a positive for me.

One person’s heaven is another’s hell and all that.

People who have chosen not to have children certainly do come u dear pressure to justify their choice. Much more than people who choose to have them. Have you ever been asked why you wanted children?

But we don’t see the positives as positives, or don’t think they will be positive for us, or they are severely outweighed by negatives. Surely that’s not hard to understand? When you have no urge/desire, the decision can only be made by rational logic - how you’d make a decision at work.

For me there would be no positives to having a dog, as they make me nervous and I don’t find them cute or fun. The only positive for me would be companionship, but that would be outweighed by my allergy, costs, having to walk in rain, picking up shite, hoovering fur all the time, and having random people come up to me when I’m sitting in the cafe trying to have a conversation with a friend.

Every decision is taken by weighing up the positives and negatives, I see much more negatives than positives for me. Watching a child develop wouldn’t be a positive as I have no interest in child development - as much as I have no interest in Danish kings and queens of the 1600s. A child would hamper my ability to pursue my actual interests.

No but there have been plenty of posts on this thread talking about how awful my life must be. It doesn't bother me really but if I did the same thing - as in, listed all the negatives of a child free life - I'd be hauled over the coals!

No-one’s saying your (or any parent’s) life must be awful. Just that it would be awful for them personally. Having a dog would be awful for me but most dog owners love their lives, clearly!

People tend to only list the negatives of having children when they are being criticised for not having them or asked to justify not wanting them. You said yourself you’ve never been asked why you wanted children.

No, because people of the "You don't have kids!!?? 😱" brigade won't believe that any woman doesn't like or want children and never shut up about it.

I think when you choose not to do something the focus is on ‘why not’ because that’s just the nature of the question and it tends to the negative. And yes, there is an element of justification because if I listed positives of children to demonstrate that yes, I am aware they exist, people might say “but you’re depriving yourself of those things” and in response you go to the negative again. Cognitively our brains prioritise negative information, it’s part of risk assessment.

In terms of positive reasons not to have children, DH and I would like the freedom to emigrate for work - future career moves for both of us might be in Canada or the EU, and if that happens we can tie up things here and go.

We collect a lot of things - vintage video game systems, figurines, VHS tapes - and our spare room is like a mini museum. We love going for a rummage in antique shops and conventions. DH spends his spare time making video games (which I project manage) and we would like to start an independent studio one day if things go well.

We love trying out new games and crafts together, recently got into linocut and I’m learning to make clothes as well as getting into weightlifting. DH got me into hiking - we’re not pros but we have had amazing walks all around the Peaks and Lake District. We have all the time we need to try new things, get better at what we love doing, and spending time together while we do it. We have a very even division of labour and that allows us to value and prioritise our relationship in our relaxation time.

Kids marriage and pets tie you down no thank you.

That's not what happened on this thread. Someone listed the negatives and I asked if they could also see the positives. Context is important.

Yes, I know - I was the one who listed to negatives 😂

I guess I just don't understand why some parents can't seem to accept that other people just aren't interested in having children, no matter how many positives there might be.

I can totally understand why other people might want kids but for me, no amount of positives would be worth losing my freedom. I love the fact that I can take time off whenever I like, that I can sleep until midday on my days off and that I can spend my days however I choose.

If you have a good family who support each other because they want to, than yes.

However, many family members only "support" each other out of sense of obligation. And then it goes together with a good side of resentment and guilt-tripping. That kind of "support" does more harm than good and it's anything but loving.

I can understand why other people don't want children, but I do react when people imply (or state outright) that having children is awful. It's not for everyone but it's certainly not awful any more than a child free life is awful.

My main concern really was the attitude expressed earlier in the thread that people shouldn't have children (even if they want to) unless they can provide a certain high standard of living. I do think that has an influence on people's decisions, sometimes in a very negative way. There is an attitude that only a certain type of childhood is acceptable which strikes me as short-sighted and very limiting.

I can understand why other people don't want children, but I do react when people imply (or state outright) that having children is awful. It's not for everyone but it's certainly not awful any more than a child free life is awful.

I guess I don't understand why someone saying "I think having children sounds awful" provokes such a strong reaction in you.

Having children sounds (to me) like hell, but other people clearly love it - so who am I to judge? I don't sit there and go "well, can you not see the positives of being child free" because whether they can or can't is totally irrelevant to their decision, surely?

Where do you live?

I love my life - it’s exactly as I planned and wanted it. Others would hate it and see no positives to it. That’s fine! I don’t need anyone else to see the positives of a life they don’t want, it’s my life and as long as I’m happy what anyone else thinks is irrelevant. Vive la différence!

Some of the people saying that have that opinion because of their own experience of deprivation in childhood.

Equally, others have stated their unwillingness to have children unless they can provide a certain lifestyle, and have been told that children don’t ’need’ the things they want to provide - which invites a defensive response. No, children may not need to those things, but it isn’t wrong for someone to want to be able to have and provide them. For you, children may be worth it no matter what and not having them would have led to painful regret, but that isn’t going to be the same for everyone. There will be those that may have wanted children had the circumstances been different, but don’t regret not having them because they weren’t.

I can understand why other people don't want children, but I do react when people imply (or state outright) that having children is awful. It's not for everyone but it's certainly not awful any more than a child free life is awful.

Do you criticise parents for talking like this? Because in my experience, they’re the ones going around saying it’s awful. Childfree people I know say that it just looks negative and tiresome, but the only people who’ve told me that having kids is awful are parents.

I don't even think the finding aspects of parenting potential awful is unique to childfree people. Personally I wouldn't want a six children or to have another baby once mine are teenagers because to me those things do sound awful.

The lifestyle thing is tricky. In general I think people really struggle with the idea of giving their children a lower standard of living than they themselves had and that's the case whatever that standard was. We've had generations that have had to accept lower standards of living before but maybe it's the combination of that and ready access to contraception that's different.

I don’t need anyone else to see the positives of a life they don’t want, it’s my life and as long as I’m happy what anyone else thinks is irrelevant

This is really well put.

Another example is pet ownership - I love dogs and own a dog, but lots of people hate the idea of it and think it sounds awful - I don't feel the need to tell them about all the positives and say "well, have you really thought about it?"

It just comes across as incredibly condescending and arrogant imo.

@GratitudeGrump

I don't agree with using the word 'fashion' as I think it's flippant and judgemental but I do think the low birth rate is in some way due to how our society is at the moment - people's choices are being influenced, not by fashion, but by societal norms and attitudes as well as the things going on in the world around us.

I think it’s purely down to increased choice.

Until very recently (basically until contraception, the protections that were afforded to women at work that meant they didn’t automatically lose their jobs when they became pregnant and other developments came around), there was no choice whatsoever.

Women, apart from a tiny handful of very wealthy women or women who were in very specific roles such as religious ones, had to become mothers if biologically possible.

So it’s obvious to me that if women now have some agency over their reproductive rights some are going to choose not to reproduce. It would be be far more surprising if all women, now they can choose not to have kids, continued to have them at the same rates as they did in the 1800.

This stuff about kids being expensive and men being unreliable may have some impact at the margins but by far the biggest factor in people having fewer children is simply that we no longer have to!

I suppose I was interested in the idea that some people genuinely think parenting is just totally terrible and can't imagine any positives, as it seems odd to me. If I said I can't imagine any positives to being child free I think I'd have my arse handed to me!

Why are you ‘sad’? I don’t understand why this makes you personally unhappy at all.

I think the problem is that you’re expecting people who chose differently to you to validate your choice.

The positives you’ve identified are subjective positives. They wouldn’t be positives for people who’ve chosen not to have them, or they’d have made a different choice. You want us to tell you that there are objective positives which apply to all women, and that those who’ve chosen not to partake must have some interesting and personal reason for not seizing those positives.

In reality, many of us do not see any positives for us in having kids. And if you said that you saw no positives for you in remaining childfree, I don’t believe you’d be criticised for that. I fully accept that my choice is subjectively great, not objectively great. And I don’t need it validated by people who presumably chose differently because they saw the subjective positives in a life as a parent.