It’s becoming unfashionable to have kids

[Housebuyingfamily]

Birth rates are on the floor which people frame as, people would have more kids were it not for the cost of them or climate change, etc etc. But I feel like it’s now more than this. As if we have a global child-free culture that’s growing every day and it’s becoming increasingly “unfashionable” to have kids, even looked down upon.

I absolutely agree that poverty is an issue as I said. While I think it's better not to bring children into a situation with a serious lack of money I don't think a large amount of money is vital to give a child a good life. I grew up in circumstances that were not poor but were by no means comfortable, but I had a good childhood. It's obvious that if a child is starving they'll suffer but I don't think it's a given that if a child has a lot of money they'll automatically have a better life than a child with less money.

I also don't think being a parent should be a luxury only open to certain sectors of society.

@OutsideLookingOut Given that the birth rate is decreasing though, surely we need AI to replace the dwindling pool of young people?

I think it’s going to be the opposite, the smaller number of young people will have many options in life and AI will be needed to plug the gaps. Older people will definitely need AI as there won’t be many young people to provide services to them.

Nothing in life is a given except death and taxes.

Richer kids won't automatically have a great life but statistically they are far more likely to have a great life than a kid growing up in poverty. I had a choice of having a child when I was young and skint, or older and established. My life is better. My child's life will be better.

"Poorer children have worse cognitive, social-behavioural and health outcomes because they are poor, and not just because poverty is correlated with other household and parental characteristics, according to a new report from the London School of Economics and Political Science (LSE)."

"Looking to explain why income matters, they found evidence in support of two central theories, one relating to parents’ ability to invest in goods and services that further child development, and the other relating to the stress and anxiety parents suffer caused by low income. There is particularly strong evidence that increasing income is likely to reduce maternal depression, which is known to be important for children’s outcomes."

https://www.lse.ac.uk/News/Latest-news-from-LSE/2017/07-July-2017/Income-directly-affects-childrens-outcomes#:~:text=Poorer%20children%20have%20worse%20cognitive,and%20Political%20Science%20(LSE).

No one would argue that living in poverty is good for anyone. It's such a redundant argument it doesn't need to be made. The point I'm making is that it's totally possible to have a good life with enough money to cover all the basics but not enough to have luxuries. It's not necessary to have large amounts of money to raise a child well.

You see, this is the kind of attitude that I find rather odd. She's too young to know she doesn't want children, yet had she said she wanted to have them at some point, would you say she is too young to know if she will actually want them in the future?
It kind of goes to show how much it is still very much the default expectation that every little girl wants to be a mummy, and if she doesn't, she'll change her mind.

Well said.

This!

Like I said in a previous comment, a teacher thought me expressing not wanting children worthy of telling my mum about it during a parent's evening. Like there must be something wrong with me.

It depends on the lifestyle someone wishes to provide, not just for any potential children but for themselves. It isn’t just about what is needed, what is wanted matters as well.

Yes, many are perfectly happy raising children on a modest wage, but it’s equally valid for someone to decide that unless they have X amount in the bank, they’d rather not have children.

Funnily enough the only thing I wanted when I was a teenager was to have kids but I never spoke about it to anyone. I was very academic and did well at school so the expectation was that I'd have a big stellar career so I couldn't really admit that I didn't give a shit about careers, the only thing I wanted was babies.

I agree, the issue arises when someone does want children but feels they shouldn't because the message they've been given is that without a large salary they will be a failure.

I'd add that no one should assume that when they do have enough money in the bank that children will still be a possibility. My DH's SIL has wanted children since she turned 30 but waited as she wanted to have a lecturing position first, which took a lot longer than she expected. She started trying at 36 and two years on she's having investigations for infertility. It's not looking good. I really hope it works for her. If she'd started at 30 her odd would likely have been better.

it’s becoming increasingly “unfashionable” to have kids, even looked down upon.

Really? I must remember that when someone else puts me down for not having kids. I think it is more likely that people are more aware that not having kids is a valid choice. I have certainly met many many parents who should never have had children - and their children who need years of therapy and support for the damage this caused. Would have been better if some people had made this choice.

"a good life", "basics", and "luxuries" look different to different people.

Some people think holidays abroad are a luxury, for example. I think they are important to developing fully rounded people with interests and experiences.

I think most people would agree holidays abroad are a luxury - a very expensive one at that. You feel they're very important. I don't - I can afford holidays abroad but don't go on them as I don't like travelling very much. I have to admit that if you thought someone shouldn't have children because they can't afford holidays abroad I would find that attitude very odd indeed.

It's not about feeling like a failure without a specific salary, it's about getting to the salary level where they can afford the type of lifestyle they want to raise their kids in. Many do more with less, and many just don't want to have to. You've got it slightly backwards.

I don't have it backwards, I'm just talking about a different thing. You're saying some people delay having kids or don't have them at all because they want a specific lifestyle and can't achieve that. I get it. I'm saying I worry about people who want kids feeling they shouldn't have them because the message they're getting is that they must provide a specific lifestyle or they'll be bad parents. They're two different situations.

You do a lot of making up stuff and putting words in people's mouths don't you?

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that it's you being defensive rather than a reading comprehension issue.

Nobody has said anyone shouldn't have children if they cannot afford a holiday. Nobody.

What I have said is that people have different lifestyle expectations and do not want to compromise on that - because it would be compromising their own quality of life and the quality of the lives of their children.

You don't think holidays are important, that's fine. I personally did not have kids until I could afford the best possible lifestyle, experiences, and opportunities. That's also fine.

For me holidays abroad are really important and enjoyable - they’ve always been a staple in my life. I would not want a child of mine (if I had one) to not be able experience them. But yes, everyone’s views of staples/luxuries are very different.

A lot of foreign travel is very cheap - cheaper than UK holidays, cheaper than running a car or doing sport to a high level. So I’m not sure I would call them luxury any more than a child playing high-level sport is a luxury, with the kit and club and travel costs. Or having a car.

I said if you thought it. You don't. Fair enough.

For a lot of families any sort of holiday is a luxury - abroad or in the UK.

I didn't go abroad until I was almost 30, I'm 39 now. It wasn't much of a hardship. I'm still pretty happy to have been born!

I think the most material point about wealth/poverty isn’t so much your current material wealth it’s your aspirations for yourself and your children.

Nor everyone can provide a comfortable life for their children from day one. Not having material wealth absolutely should not disbar anyone from having children.

But I do think not having any ambition to better yourself or the opportunity for your children at all makes it much harder for those children to achieve their potential.

Not only because of the things they miss out on but as a result of the paucity of ambition for them and lack of positive role models.

So many people start having children in materially difficult circumstances. But good parents want to improve their children’s lives. Whether they achieve that or not is down often to circumstances beyond their control. But they try. And that in itself sends a powerful message about ambition and self reliance.

I do think people who no financial security or support and no wherewithal or ambition to change their circumstances are probably not in the best place to become parents. People who only want to be parents and don’t give any thought to hoe their children are to be supported, don’t usually make great parents.

I thought of something else today when I was reading the thread about the HV saying that you can't leave a baby on its own even to go to the loo.

It made me think, who'd have a child if they know they are constantly going to be judged and told that everything they do is wrong for the baby, from pregnancy to childbirth to feeding to sleeping arrangements and beyond!

Not just young couples.